BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums banner

1 - 20 of 41 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
29 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
So I am in the middle of a full teardown on my 105k mile s85. VANOS (or should I say THANOS) decided to mail it in and ate itself (more specifically the outer race and bearing were destroyed).


I pulled the engine and brought it to a shop when I found lots of metal in the oil, partially because they had just done the rod bearings about 10k ago and partially because I don't feel all that qualified to do a full teardown.


Anyhow, the shop has been great to me but they won't use anything other than a brand new vanos pump to the tune of 4200.00. I found some for closer to 3k, but that's not exactly fair to try and force them to use. All said and done the repairs will total about 6k.


Here is where I start to feel froggy. I could source a used s65 for 6-9k, and yes it would be down on power (414 vs 500 as far as HP) as well as torque, it has a low-pressure VANOS system and would be much lower cost (theoretically) in the long term.


My current M5 is a manual, so no issues worrying about DSG/SMG and other than some potential motor mount modifications, it should be a fairly simple swap.


Looking for valid reasons on why/how this is a terrible idea, and it has to be more than just HP. I would have all sorts of room up front for activities (i.e. a supercharger) in the future and would probably drop the gearing down to a 4.10 our back to help compensate for the whopping 86 hp decrease.


So there it is, take your shots gentleman (the harder and more brutal the better).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
457 Posts
Comparable S85 used crate motors can be had around 7K usd. Also you know you'll be nearly 100 lbs of torque lower which will hurt with the weight penalty way more than the hp. My only gripe with our cars is lack of torque.


imho the V10 is what makes the car , if you are going to do an engine swap I'd look for a more inventive engine choice.


Viper/SRT10 V10? 6.4 hemi? 5.2 voodoo? LSA?


A S65 M5 is just a fatter E90 M3. as far as having room to supercharge... if you spend the money to swap in a S65(which wont be plug and play) and then supercharge, I'd be surprised if the cost wasn't more than fixing your motor and supercharging it to begin with.


But hey your money your car. Best of luck with whatever you decide to do.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
435 Posts
I think there is a reason that the phrase "swap the motor to save money" isn't used often.

It's something we say to our wives/girlfriends so as to not get in trouble (as much)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,673 Posts
S65s have the same rod bearing problem. S65s also have main bearing problems the S85 doesn't. I see an equal amount of both to rebuild these days.

mss60 DME for the S65 uses EWS4, E60 CAS module uses EWS3. Not compatible.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
123 Posts
It's going to cost way more than a zero mile S85 off the shelf would cost to accomplish something like that. It's not a direct swap. Custom fab everything mechanical from mounts to transmission to exhaust, intake, chassis modifications for fitment, etc. Custom engine control system. Custom chassis electronics integration. Tuning. You could probably just buy a new car for what that would all cost.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
376 Posts
S65s have the same rod bearing problem. S65s also have main bearing problems the S85 doesn't. I see an equal amount of both to rebuild these days.

mss60 DME for the S65 uses EWS4, E60 CAS module uses EWS3. Not compatible.
LCI CAS module can probably be made to work in EWS4 mode. LCI models use the same part number as the 528/535, which have EWS4.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,370 Posts
That's a terrible idea, honestly.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
85 Posts
I thought of this while back and i agree its a good idea but not a commitment i recommend. If you plan to keep the car for a long time its a good idea from stand point of reliability.

It wont be cheaper simply because you will have to add dme, harness, programm(you said youre not qualified so possibly pay someone) and gobs of hours to ghetto rig things that are not suppose to be in this chassy. You dont know if hood will even close with the intake. List goes on. S65 would be a cool swap on a wagon but its not practical no matter how you look at it. UNLESS you can get a super good deal on it and have time and experience which it sounds you lack.

PS i would love to see it and it worth a shot. try mpartsworldwide in NJ they have good stock and may get you a good deal on a set
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
36 Posts
Well, I'm sure I'm going to get a lot of hate for this... I'm with you.

As much as I love my M6 6sp vert, these cars are fundamentally flawed and I think an engine swap (non BMW) is a brilliant idea. Imagine not dreading thr chime, an engine you're not worried about every time you start it, something that you're not "preventatively" replacing CRITICAL engine components to avoid the grenade scenario, something that at least somewhat RESEMBLES reliability.

Me? I'm plannning to do rod bearings this spring and to drive my car for one summer and if that goes well, maybe a second summer. If, the expected happens and something catastrophic happens to this engine made of glass, I'll NEVER replace it with another s85... Yes it's amazing, yes it sounds glorious, but let's be honest, it's a horribly flawed engine. In 2007 (my MY) it was untouchable in terms or power and performance but reliability, give me a break - the idea of taking this thing on a long road trip is a joke and shame on BMW for what this has turned into. It's a lab experiment that should never have seen production. The S85 is beta at best!!! Vanos pump, vanos solenoids, rod bearings, throttle actuators, injectors, SMG.... What doesn't fail on these that doesn't cost thousands to replace?

Enter the LS SWAP!!! (Yeah I heard the groan...)

IMHO, swapping it with something you know you can count on, is the only thing that makes sense if you love the look, the handling and want SOME reliability. Even an unreliable engine swap would be better than the perpetual expectation of failure of the S85... Alternatively if you have more money than you know what to do with or you're just a masochist who loves to watch your guilty pleasure leave on a flatbed, while you "Burn My Wallet" (BMW life) by all means keep spending money to keep the pin in your S85 grenade, but only just... You'll suffer eventually.

Sloppy mechanics gets 900HP on a with a junkyard LS with a new cam and a turbo, surely a marginal increase in component quality could yeild happiness for E6# owners too.

I'm not naive and of course this is a huge job and subbing this job out to someone would be very expensive but if you're willing to learn and integratethings that were never meant to work together anything is possible, as long as you ignore the naysayers you can make anything happen. FTW! And FBMW! (Last one I'll ever own)

:endsoapbox

Sent from my LG-M703 using Tapatalk
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
2,524 Posts
Well, I'm sure I'm going to get a lot of hate for this... I'm with you.

As much as I love my M6 6sp vert, these cars are fundamentally flawed and I think an engine swap (non BMW) is a brilliant idea. Imagine not dreading thr chime, an engine you're not worried about every time you start it, something that you're not "preventatively" replacing CRITICAL engine components to avoid the grenade scenario, something that at least somewhat RESEMBLES reliability.

Me? I'm plannning to do rod bearings this spring and to drive my car for one summer and if that goes well, maybe a second summer. If, the expected happens and something catastrophic happens to this engine made of glass, I'll NEVER replace it with another s85... Yes it's amazing, yes it sounds glorious, but let's be honest, it's a horribly flawed engine. In 2007 (my MY) it was untouchable in terms or power and performance but reliability, give me a break - the idea of taking this thing on a long road trip is a joke and shame on BMW for what this has turned into. It's a lab experiment that should never have seen production. The S85 is beta at best!!! Vanos pump, vanos solenoids, rod bearings, throttle actuators, injectors, SMG.... What doesn't fail on these that doesn't cost thousands to replace?

Enter the LS SWAP!!! (Yeah I heard the groan...)

IMHO, swapping it with something you know you can count on, is the only thing that makes sense if you love the look, the handling and want SOME reliability. Even an unreliable engine swap would be better than the perpetual expectation of failure of the S85... Alternatively if you have more money than you know what to do with or you're just a masochist who loves to watch your guilty pleasure leave on a flatbed, while you "Burn My Wallet" (BMW life) by all means keep spending money to keep the pin in your S85 grenade, but only just... You'll suffer eventually.

Sloppy mechanics gets 900HP on a with a junkyard LS with a new cam and a turbo, surely a marginal increase in component quality could yeild happiness for E6# owners too.

I'm not naive and of course this is a huge job and subbing this job out to someone would be very expensive but if you're willing to learn and integratethings that were never meant to work together anything is possible, as long as you ignore the naysayers you can make anything happen. FTW! And FBMW! (Last one I'll ever own)

:endsoapbox

Sent from my LG-M703 using Tapatalk
If you are going to do something like this, at least have the courtesy to do it to a non-WBS chassis. A 530i or similar would be appropriate.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
36 Posts
I respect that, but why? Do you honestly think that these cars will ever be worth anything more than the pathetic 20-30K that they are now? Anyone who knows anything about them knows that they're "an amazing car but you'd be crazy to own one".

I know I have a unicorn, but ive struggled with this. 1 of 378 manual M6 verts, but if it grenades, would it make sense for me to sell it for peanuts in broken albeit original condition instead of having it live on with an engine that would actually last and outperform the original just because?

Just creating dialogue here, obviously I bought the car because I loved it but where do you draw the line?

Sent from my LG-M703 using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
51 Posts
Was the HP vanos line replaced when you had the RB's done previously? It may be that i/o the pump as they tend to fail first. The S65 is more or less the same motor, with the same issues as the 85.

Oh, and a new OEM vanos pump from ECStuning is $3300..........
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
51 Posts
3300 bucks for a pump. Let it sink in for a minute. ;)

Sent from my LG-M703 using Tapatalk
even worse from here. 1 AUD = 0.70 USD's. So they'd cost AU$4700, plus GST ($470) so 5 thousand Australian peso's. And BMW sold the Monster here for $240,000. Crazy world.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,370 Posts
I have to laugh at people saying the parts for these cars are expensive. Well, this was a $100K+ car derived using F1 tech back at the time, and people who paid such dough for them then could easily afford a few $4-5K repairs if needed. All of us, except for original owners (if such still exist) are not BMWs target market with this car.

So yeah, the parts are not cheap, considering these are $20K cars now. If you are so afraid they are going to break, sell the car. Take a loss, move on. Don't make Frankenmonsters with garbage motors out of the m-cars. There are plenty of cheap 5 and 6 series that can be used for this.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ferris

·
Registered
Joined
·
51 Posts
I have to laugh at people saying the parts for these cars are expensive. Well, this was a $100K+ car derived using F1 tech back at the time, and people who paid such dough for them then could easily afford a few $4-5K repairs if needed. All of us, except for original owners (if such still exist) are not BMWs target market with this car.

So yeah, the parts are not cheap, considering these are $20K cars now. If you are so afraid they are going to break, sell the car. Take a loss, move on. Don't make Frankenmonsters with garbage motors out of the m-cars. There are plenty of cheap 5 and 6 series that can be used for this.
I'm just making an observation of fact. We do still exist. :grin I bought mine new and don't plan on selling it ever. Having tested dozens of cars over the years nothing comes close. Even newer M models imho.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
36 Posts
I have to laugh at people saying the parts for these cars are expensive. Well, this was a $100K+ car derived using F1 tech back at the time, and people who paid such dough for them then could easily afford a few $4-5K repairs if needed. All of us, except for original owners (if such still exist) are not BMWs target market with this car.



So yeah, the parts are not cheap, considering these are $20K cars now. If you are so afraid they are going to break, sell the car. Take a loss, move on. Don't make Frankenmonsters with garbage motors out of the m-cars. There are plenty of cheap 5 and 6 series that can be used for this.
Laugh if you like, but I'm sorry, the price for parts is stupid, plain and simple. For no reason other than they can be and people will buy them. It's disgraceful.

I'll admit, bought my car for the engine and for the sound and feeling of driving it, but let's be real.... People should do what they want! It's metal with other rotating metal inside it. Hell, if by some miracle of reverse economics these things increase in value, people who "frankenmonster" a few with reliable engines will increase the value of those who kept them "pure". Honestly, you think if some poor schmuck throws a rod and has finally had it with the made from glass S85, you think he should give the car away for nothing and buy a 530 to Frankenstein instead? To what? Keep the breed pure?!?! Why? Because it's so precious? C'mon.....

Here's a thought... Let's say I have 1000 Blackberry shares. In 2008 they were worth $148 CAD/share but through the wonder of depreciation and horrible design, today they're only worth $12.12... Should I keep putting money into it and pretend they're still worth 148K? :)

Sent from my LG-M703 using Tapatalk
 
1 - 20 of 41 Posts
Top