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Discussion Starter #1
I am worried about the upcoming M cars from BMW.
Mercedes will 2004 or 2005 launch a SLK amg with 476 hp. They will most certainly deliver a SL 65 AMG with 612 hp. Probably S 65 AMG too.
What will BMW do? The 5.5 liter 10 cylinder engine will not suffice I am afraid? The M5 might do with + 500 hp compared to Mercedes E 55, but M6 cannot stand up against SL 65 AMG and 760 Will be weak compared to S 65 AMG. And what about a Z4 M roadster. What engine will that have to compete with the SLK AMG?
Will BMW pass or will we see engines we don´t know about yet or will (and this makes me afraid) we see BMW engines with compressor or turbo? Will BMW use their 12 cylinder engine (modified) in M6 to get enough cubic inches? Will we see a M7? Questions, questions.

Can anyone ease my worries

Chraun
 

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Don´t forget that the CL65 for example is a car from AMG´s "Kleinserie" which means it will be built in very limited numbers and also very very expensive, around EUR200K.
 

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power is not everything.. :)
 

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As Tfung says.. Power is not everything... also consider what the AMG cars weigh (and I am sure BMW has)...

Remember that even after the test between the M5, Jaguar, AMG and S6 Audi.. the authors all liked the BMW for its all round performance.
 

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Im with the others- power isnt everything- consider power to weight as well as other factors. BMWs havent always been the absolute fastest 0-60, but theyve been among the most fun to get there. thats what needs to stay the same.
 

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Naturally aspirated engines are inherently more responsive and reliable than forced induction (e.g. turbocharged & supercharged) ones.

BMW knows this and will, in my opinion, stick with non-turbo engines.

It is a testament to the engineering prowess of BMW-M that they, unlike Audi & Mercedes, can acheive supercar performance without the need to "cheat & tweak".

I would be delighted with 500 bhp provided the weight of the vehicle doesn't keep creeping up.

Engine power and increased with each incarnation of the M5 (E28-E34-E39) but so has the weight - this is definitely a cause for concern.....
 

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500 HP, lighter weight, manual trans, rack and pinion steering, impoved suspenion, who could ask for anything more? Any number of cars can be made into a 1/4 mile champ. But the M5 is so much more.

Of course my car will be fine for at least another 2 or 3 years. Much longer if I don't like the new M5 or M6.
 

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here, here!! the word is the E60 m5 weight will be very very close to that of the E39 M5... lots of aluminum in there- which is good because we get to hear our English friends say al-u-nin-i-mum even more ;)
 

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Chraun said:
I am worried about the upcoming M cars from BMW.
Mercedes will 2004 or 2005 launch a SLK amg with 476 hp. They will most certainly deliver a SL 65 AMG with 612 hp. Probably S 65 AMG too.
A $200,000 car cannot reasonably be compared with a $70,000 or $80,000. Hell, Black M5 has probably put only a shade over $100,000 into his RMS S/C M5. It's 600 HP and doesn't weight 4,500 lbs.
 

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Mr Janne said:
Don´t forget that the CL65 for example is a car from AMG´s "Kleinserie" which means it will be built in very limited numbers and also very very expensive, around EUR200K.
But don't you think that similar performance gains can be had very cheaply on the S600?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Psychology

Friends!

Don´t forget the immense impact of psychlogy; a Mercedes with let´s say + 50 or more hp will have a marketing advantage over a BMW even if they have about the same performance numbers. I also think that a BMW cannot beat a Mercedes if it is not close in hp. remeber the small difference between present M5 and the former E55.
It is in my view absolutely essential that BMW keep pace with Mercedes in hp.
A question: Can BMW deliver 600 hp from its 5.5 liter V10? If not can BMW now increase the cubic inches or is it to late?
Further more next SLK AMG will have 476 hp! Will BMW counter? if so with what? Present M5 engine?. Or will BMW in its roadster present something more weak. I have a sad feeling that BMW is lagging behind.

Chraun
 

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Re: Psychology

Chraun said:
A question: Can BMW deliver 600 hp from its 5.5 liter V10?
Sure they can.. but do you want an M5 that drives like a Ferrari ??
With that kind of power/displacement ratio, you will probably have a 9k redline, and very nervous throttle response.. not something everyone would like in a luxury sedan.


Gerrit
 

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Chraun,
MB always has the marketing advantage you speak of.

to those who buy a badge, they buy a MB because "its the best". these are likely to be the same people, just when they have more $, who would buy a 130k S class.

BMW has always sold cars on the basis of "I like how it drives".

now, the above may be a little simplisitc- surely there are those who buy a BMW for its status too, but by and large this is how it is. as a matter of fact, MB has publically stated that it knows this and it charges a premium of ~$10k per vehicle becasue it knows the market will pay it simply since its a MB. I dont blame them for making money.

to prove this to you, consider the SL55 AMG. Yes, its faster than a comprable Z8, but the cars do offer good performance numbers. but take a look- MB simply adds a blower and tweaks the look and suspension. BMW builds a car that's 1,000lbs lighter, and as a result delivers a car thats more fun to drive. Watching Mario Andrettis reactions to these 2 cars said what he dare not say to a magazine- the SL55 just wasnt that much fun for him. Some people will want the bragging rights, I know, that for me, and I think for most other Bimmerheads, we want a car thats fun.

its not just about power, its about balance- and this is why it takes M so much longer than AMG to come out with a car. M is really doing more than a tuner like AMG will do.


:cheers:
 

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Although the new E-class looks gine, I found the interior to be really cheap feeling. And anyway, like others have said hp isn't everything. So what if I'll loose a drag race? Big deal. On the track on the other hand, I'll put my money on the M5.
 

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Reflex55 said:
Although the new E-class looks gine, I found the interior to be really cheap feeling. And anyway, like others have said hp isn't everything. So what if I'll loose a drag race? Big deal. On the track on the other hand, I'll put my money on the M5.
Well, that's one of MBs major flaws... relatively mediocre build quality. Admittedly though, if all you're buying is an E200 Kompressor, which is not available in the states, the build quality would be acceptable for the price. But I mean, take it up to an E55 and the build quality just doesn't seem to justify the $70,000 MSRP sticker.
 

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Exactly. MB in the last few years are cutting corners and are hoping that their costumers will continue buying them based on reputation only. And to some extent this works, but even the average joe will eventually realize that MB are not what they used to be.
 

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Re: Re: Psychology

kAtAnA309 said:
Sure they can.. but do you want an M5 that drives like a Ferrari ??

Gerrit
HELL YES :hihi: :hihi: :haha: :haha:
 

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Reflex55 said:
Exactly. MB in the last few years are cutting corners and are hoping that their costumers will continue buying them based on reputation only. And to some extent this works, but even the average joe will eventually realize that MB are not what they used to be.
I agree, but I also would add that this process will take a very long time and if competitors like BMW put out designs that the market thinks are unappealing, MB will retain and probably gain customers. All I can tell you is that I almost switched one of our vehicles because of the new designs but when I drove the competition (including several MBs) I came to the realization that I have been spoiled by BMW :)
 

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Don't get me wrong, I'm not disrespecting MB. They have a lot of good things going on for them. Especially the extended model range. And to some extent the styling. And as for future purchases, I have big dilemmas also. On one side I wasn't too impressed by the E55 and on the other hand who knows how the E60 M5 will look like? I mean from what I've seen in pics so far it's ok but who knows how it'll look in person. Of course then there's the RS6, but I haven't driven one yet.
 
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