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Discussion Starter #3
Yep, that is the draw back of forced induction to make big power. You need a lot of surface area for intercooling and engine cooling. big power means big boost, which requires big inter cooler. This is something naturally aspirated engines like our S85s don鈥檛 have to deal with.

The aftermarket could have some better looking designs with less grille but it鈥檚 going to come at the cost of airflow which means power trade off.
 

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I鈥檓 pretty much done with BMW. I never bought-in with the last couple generations. I feel like they lost their way. Maybe this is a move away from making fast appliances?

I had so much hope with the M4 GTS. Almost pulled the trigger back in the day. Although, they are probably a good value right now. I had a plan to rebadge it as an m3 on principal.

997.2 GT3 RS 6MT is on my short list. I鈥檓 just waiting for the speculators to take a bath. GT4 prices are down and sitting on top of 997 GT3 prices.

Flappy Paddle 991 GT3s with 10-year/100,000 and way down too!

And, my opinion, the wildcard c8 is going to throw a wrench into the mix! It鈥檚 a good time to be an enthusiast.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I don鈥檛 know if Porsche will ever get the speculation market in control, they keep limiting production and offering slots to the big ballers so there are so many people that will keep floating those prices. I can鈥檛 remeber exactly but 997.2 GT3 RS came with the 4.0 right? I think those will stay big money since it was the last in stick and has the 4.0.

I鈥榙 like to get the 991 GT3 RS. I have a score to settle with that car still on nschliefe. It鈥檚 my own demon...
 

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I can鈥檛 remeber exactly but 997.2 GT3 RS came with the 4.0 right? I think those will stay big money since it was the last in stick and has the 4.0.
Yes, the 4.0s are limited production big money.

I want to drive mine at the track, which is why I think the 3.8 is the better for my purpose. They flooded the 3.6s and 3.8s. I鈥檓 less worried about collectability. I鈥檓 also the idiot, that took a numbers matching e28 m5 and turned it from an s38b35 into an s38b38 Group A/ProCar/restomod track car in the spirit of Singer.

Porsche production numbers:
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I was looking at 997s GT3s (all versions)and remember reading how they all still suffer from understeer and the differences were really things like that. Despite being ugly 996s are cheap and have been toying with getting a 996 GT3 or Turbo. The 996 GT3s are overlooked because of the stupid headlights and are pretty raw, more similar to the cup car than the GT3 during the 997 period. For a track car I can deal with goofy headlights, I think they even make decals to get them round again.

My latest kinda dumb move was buying 08 SMG. I didn鈥檛 need a 3rd one. i don鈥檛 really regret it too much since it is a 500 hp v-10 sedan but probably should have spend time and money on something else.
 

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You can never have enough cylinders in your life.
 
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They seem you stick an M badge on everything theses days. I guess that's the marketing department trying to bleed some money out of the brand. Most of these cars are boats these days but manual and rear drive is proof there are still drivers out there.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
In about 10 years the 2021 models might be worth picking up.
Exactly, I see no reason to buy any M car brand new and ride the depreciation caused by flaws. Perhaps they will screw up the rod bearings on these engines too, i鈥檓 sure there will be something that ends up being seriously overlooked. I鈥檓 always looking for misfit toys. Furthermore, I鈥檓 optimistic that ZF/getrag will not do too much to change the manual in these cars so we should continue to have some transmission parts that can be lightly modified to keep the E60 M5 6MTs going. It鈥檚 very likely that these cars will weigh about as much as ours now
 

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Exactly, I see no reason to buy any M car brand new and ride the depreciation caused by flaws. Perhaps they will screw up the rod bearings on these engines too, i鈥檓 sure there will be something that ends up being seriously overlooked. I鈥檓 always looking for misfit toys. Furthermore, I鈥檓 optimistic that ZF/getrag will not do too much to change the manual in these cars so we should continue to have some transmission parts that can be lightly modified to keep the E60 M5 6MTs going. It鈥檚 very likely that these cars will weigh about as much as ours now
BMW Better get the M3 down to 3500lbs range. The electrics will eat these cars alive in 3-4 years.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Keeping the weight down costs a lot. The fact that they keep making the 3/4 series wider and longer means the foot print grows. bigger hips mean bigger azz. M division has no control over that, it鈥檚 the base platform. They have to move to AL or CF body panels and structure, along with stripping out interior stuff like sound deadening audio, etc. I don鈥檛 see any of that on a non CSL version. The M5 will continue to become heavier too.
 

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Keeping the weight down costs a lot. The fact that they keep making the 3/4 series wider and longer means the foot print grows. bigger hips mean bigger azz. M division has no control over that, it鈥檚 the base platform. They have to move to AL or CF body panels and structure, along with stripping out interior stuff like sound deadening audio, etc. I don鈥檛 see any of that on a non CSL version. The M5 will continue to become heavier too.
Well the rumour mill says under 3500lbs although I am not sure I believe it when the 340i is 3849lbs.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
3500 is really light for any car with that footprint and steel body structure. Even if they do composite closures (all doors, hood, trunk) that鈥檚 gonna be hard target. It has to be more than the roof panel and hood. They were doing that 20 yrs ago already. Ditch the 80 lb 20 way seats. Maybe they will go for an aluminum diff housing (which is a big compromise in the wrong direction). They could do a composite driveshaft, exhaust, and wheels. But this starts getting in to big money and way too pricy. That might be a good CSL or GT4 package but not base M3/4.

Most NEW M3/4 owners could careless about weight reduction and true chassis dynamics. They want torque, luxury, and the badge. It has to be quite too and they want more space. They lease these things then move on to the next. That鈥檚 why the steering effort on these newer M cars are so overboosted. It would be a disaster for them if Becky or Karen broke her nail while turning the wheel. BMW is running a business, enthusiasts are no longer the real focus of the customer. These things are nothing like the original M cars, I鈥檇 like to be proven wrong though.
 

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Most NEW M3/4 owners could careless about weight reduction and true chassis dynamics. They want torque, luxury, and the badge. It has to be quite too and they want more space. They lease these things then move on to the next. That鈥檚 why the steering effort on these newer M cars are so overboosted. It would be a disaster for them if Becky or Karen broke her nail while turning the wheel. BMW is running a business, enthusiasts are no longer the real focus of the customer. These things are nothing like the original M cars, I鈥檇 like to be proven wrong though.
Winner winner! The same was true for the e60 10 years ago. Nearly everyone turned in their no maintenance rentals when their lease was up, and moved on to the next lease.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
BMW needs to do better on their durability validation. All lease cars endure some amount of neglect, but it the jobs of the engineers to meet some standards. That said, if they did I wouldn鈥檛 have been able to buy such a car so cheaply.

The current M2 CS is the M car now that comes closest to what I consider to be the original M formula. I do have to give that car props. I had 8 laps in one at Spa last summer. I had never driven the M2 CS before and I had never driven Spa either. Not even on Xbox or PlayStation. The best I could do was 2:55.87 after 8 laps, which I was not happy about at the time. I never got the turn in and braking points down, since I was new to the track. The car was a performance rental so I didn鈥檛 go that hard. I understood afterwards that this car can do 2:50 in the same config by a pro. I鈥檓 pretty sure that with 8 more laps, the right tire pressures, and timing in the session so have the properly warmed up tires. Im sure I can do a 2:52. It鈥檚 also a very good daily.


940825
 

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Meanwhile, I鈥檓 looking at adding another e30 race car, w/an s52 swap. 2400# and 265hp and aero is a lot of fun.
 
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