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If you buy a clutch kit from luk you'll find a sachs clutch in the box, pilot bearing, a dab of grease for the fork, a delrin throwout bearing AND a cheap plastic alignment tool. A new clutch PP does come with a wire pre-loading it to make it easier to install. Been there done that. No fancy clutch clamping tool like bmw requires in newtis/ista (same thing btw). Plenty of people don't even get the cheap plastic alignment tool. Would it be nice to have one? Of course.

And you can post whatever you want as long as there's some common sense etiquette. Differing opinions welcome. Enough said, let's stay on topic.
 

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Discussion Starter #22
It has been years since I did a clutch job. It sounds like in these M5s with SMG there is an additional part - the intermediate clutch plate. Having been so long since I did a clutch and having never done one on an SMG, I must admit that I am having trouble visualizing it.

The blown 2006 engine has a transmission with a clutch that was replaced 30K ago. The transmission that came with the replacement engine has an original clutch with 52K miles. At this point I want to get the car put back together and running. Along those lines, I was thinking I could swap the 'old' transmission to the donor engine since clutch/flywheel have 20K less miles. It has been a while since I have done any clutch work. Do you think I can readily do this or does it open up the same can of worms with balanced clutch, intermediate plate, and flywheel?
 

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Sure an engine stand is nice but even if doing this with engine on the floor it will be 10 times easier than crawling under the car.
@flacoramos
I'm really confused on how it is possible ?
Can you please explain how on earth someone would be able to remove the oil pan from the engine with engine sitting on the floor? Also how one would remove and install the bearing caps? Are you suggesting that one should roll the engine over on it's left or right side, knowing that the engine would be partly resting on the secondary air induction valve and oil sump or exhaust manifold? Or are you suggesting that the front accessory drive would be the side facing down, which would make rotating the crank little difficult? Perhaps the engine would sit upside down so that it's resting on the intake plenum? The last option would be that the engine sits on the rear side of the block and flywheel? That side is at least flat...

How would you rotate that 400 pound lump? Just roll it over while it is on the ground as is? If you had it hanging by a chain on a cherry picker or gantry crane how would rotate it then? Call ask the wife and kids to help you rotate it 90 degrees and then lower it on the ground?
 

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It has been years since I did a clutch job. It sounds like in these M5s with SMG there is an additional part - the intermediate clutch plate. Having been so long since I did a clutch and having never done one on an SMG, I must admit that I am having trouble visualizing it.

The blown 2006 engine has a transmission with a clutch that was replaced 30K ago. The transmission that came with the replacement engine has an original clutch with 52K miles. At this point I want to get the car put back together and running. Along those lines, I was thinking I could swap the 'old' transmission to the donor engine since clutch/flywheel have 20K less miles. It has been a while since I have done any clutch work. Do you think I can readily do this or does it open up the same can of worms with balanced clutch, intermediate plate, and flywheel?
The SMG clutch is a twin disk design. See picture here, this is supposed to be what you get in the box if you buy it from Sachs. Mine is stored away but I have no reason to believe there is anything else in the box. Based off of what flamcoramos said, the LUK package comes with some plastic centering tool, I've not seen a picture of what that looks like, but if it did also locate the center of the clutch cover, then it would be totally identical to the BMW 212300, potentially without the locking feature if they were going to make an ultra cheap version. However, I don't believe that it does and no one would rent out the 212300. The RepSet's from Luk are specially made for mechanics to get all the relevant parts in one box. That said I don't think the 9 bolts are ever included. They MUST be replaced.

934544


The twin disk design is a much more expensive and higher capacity torque capacity clutch design than the conventional single disk designs (~98% of all manual clutches in the market). The special tool's function is to align both friction disks, to the pilot bearing and clutch cover. It also allows you to disassemble and install the entire assembly (as a stack) in it's pre-balanced position, to the flywheel. Professional mechanics (dealers) have a need to remove the entire clutch assembly and reinstall it in the orignal orientation. When you orient the assemble from horizontal to vertical, it is really easy for one of the plates or discs to slip off and smash your foot. The tool has a retaining button. If you read the procedure now, you can start to see what I described. The really large diameter part of the tool is what the inner diameter of diaphragm spring sits on and that is the ONLY thing that you can reference for the center point of the clutch cover without the cover bolted down to the flywheel. Thus you can see what you need to remove the old clutch cover, because you have to unbolt the 9 bolts in a sequence so it doesn't fly off or skew rotation when you start unbolting it.

I don't disagree that if you mark everything you can remove and install everything without any alignment tool, some people eyeball everything.
 

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What is the purpose of the tool? Does it help keep the clutch and intermediate plate aligned?
yes, as mentioned in the post above, concentric alignment of the cover and discs to the flywheel, and prevent it from falling apart when you install or remove it. The tool can be rented.
 

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Discussion Starter #27
Makes sense. So no way I can take the transmission off the 2006 blown engine and put it on the donor 2010 engine without removing and replacing the clutch? Sorry for silly questions. I am an occasional hobbyist and it has been years since I worked on a transmission or clutch.
 

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I was thinking I could swap the 'old' transmission to the donor engine since clutch/flywheel have 20K less miles. It has been a while since I have done any clutch work. Do you think I can readily do this or does it open up the same can of worms with balanced clutch, intermediate plate, and flywheel?
Makes sense. So no way I can take the transmission off the 2006 blown engine and put it on the donor 2010 engine without removing and replacing the clutch? Sorry for silly questions. I am an occasional hobbyist and it has been years since I worked on a transmission or clutch.
The "old trans" should be fully compatible with a "newer" clutch assy and flywheel. You can swap trans for trans without removing the clutch assy. The input shaft of the trans is splined and mates up to one of the clutch disks and rests in the pilot bearing.

You WILL need to do adaptations though since the stack height due to wear and hydraulic force to operate the diaphragm spring would be different. Clutch slip and engagement is different too. Technically if you don't do so it still could drive, but you are VERY likely to "RED COG yourself", because the computer has incorrect knowledge of the key engagement points. It usually occurs when at the most inopportune time (because its a BMW). But seriously this is why I said do the job to 100% to proper procedure.

Other consideration is if you then just keep the old throwout bearing, pivot pin, etc. IMHO swapping out the slave cylinder studs is a must since that part does fail, and in normal form, can only be replaced from inside the bellhousing, which means dropping the trans. If you swap the studs, the slave cylinder can be accessed from outside the car.

I'd recommend against mixing used clutch assemblies and flywheels. I didn't mention in my very early posts but if you were thinking about replacing the clutch you need to assess the condition of the flywheel. We have a dual mass flywheel (DMF), so it's not just the surface condition that needs to be considered, but also the flywheel bearing play and spring play. This is one of the reasons why you can't just resurface a DMF and think everything is ok. There are some very specific and expensive tools to measure that stuff, but BMW doesn't really talk about it in their service procedures. Their way of dealing with it is just replace the whole thing with a new one.

If one were to replace the flywheel (and planning to keep the car) for a while, then I'd consider also replacing the rear main seal. It's not unusual for that to leak at 100k miles.
 

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Discussion Starter #29
Right now I want to complete the engine swap and get the car running. I would like to think I will keep the car and drive it for the next decade or beyond as my weekend car. But I have never driven this car before and do not know yet if I will keep it or turn around and sell it once the engine swap is complete. It just depends on how well it runs, how comfortable it is on my troublesome back, and how well my golf clubs and cart fit in and out of the trunk. Ha ha.

Sorry you lost me there. The donor ('new') engine, transmission, and clutch are all factory original with 52K miles on them. The blown ('old') engine and transmission I am replacing have 135K miles but the clutch was replaced 35K miles ago.

I was hoping that if I take the transmission off the old engine and put it on the new one that the clutch would go along with it without having to go through the clutch removal and replacement procedure. It has been so long since I opened up a bell housing (nearly 10 years) that I do not remember how everything bolts up in there. If memory serves me the clutch does not 'go with' the transmission. I was just looking for a way to get the 35K clutch assembly into the new engine without a lot of to do. I don't think it can happen that way though. If I want to move it to the new engine I would have to go through the clutch removal and replacement procedure. Please confirm.

I only drive my weekend car about 5K miles each year anyway. So it would likely be 2-4 years before I need to replace this clutch which currently 52K miles on it.
 

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ah yes confusing. let me see if I understand correctly. You want to put a "35k aged" clutch on to a "52k aged" engine and "52k aged" trans. The newest stuff all together, makes sense. The unknown is the mileage of the flywheel, it could be 135k, 52k, or 35k. If the trans job where the 35k clutch was done included a new flywheel, that flywheel would be also then 35k. If when the trans job where the 35k clutch was done was the original flywheel, that flywheel would be 135k.

If you have the records and believe the flywheel was done, then take the 35k old clutch and 35k old flywheel and put it on the 52k engine. They are a "matched" set and that's ok. Putting on a 35k clutch on a 52k engine (and flywheel) is not ideal, it all really depends on the surface quality of the 52k flywheel. It makes no sense to transfer over a 135k flywheel and put it on a 52k engine and put a 35k clutch on it.

In any situation the tool is needed, if you want to reuse a clutch that was installed already. With the tool, the removal and replacement of the clutch assy is quite trivial, unbolt 9 bolts in a certain order and then reinstall the clutch assy on a different flywheel with 9 new bolts in a certain order. You can rent the tool for like $60 of buy one use it and then resell it on eBay for almost the same amount.

I'd get the engine and trans in the car and running and not fret with rod bearings as you proposed. As I said in the other thread, I can't understand what flacoramos has proposed as a method to swap bearings with the engine on the floor. Rod bearing job in the car is not that difficult, just time consuming and a few special tools. I've gone with the ACL bearings on 2 of my M5s. I do have a set of BE bearings and bolts on hand, but not installed them, maybe I'll put them in M5 #3. BE is very expensive and either long wait time or not available.
 

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Discussion Starter #31
It is a difficult task to decide which parts to replace now versus later. It is impossible to predict if the car will be reliable and worth sinking money into having purchased it with a blown engine as a project and having never driven it.

Things on my radar to replace are:
1.) starter motor.
2.) lower rod bearings.
3.) clutch assembly.
4.) internal vanos hose/line.

I will install the new starter when it arrives. Once I switch the engine wire harness from the old to new engine, I will remove the transmission from the old engine and see if I can get the old engine securely and safely on my engine stand. If so I may install the new rod bearings while the new engine still out of the car. But it will be a game time decision. I will likely wait on the clutch assembly until I drive the car fro 5K to 10K miles mainly because of the cost especially if a new dual mass flywheel is also needed. I have not made up my mind on the internal vanos hose/line yet because I do not know if it can later be replaced with the engine in the car. Plus I cannot even locate it on the engine. Is it internal to engine as the name suggests? Special tools needed? Is there a thread on replacing it?
 

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Yes, that is why I said it is a dilemma. With your mileage, I'd just do #1 if you are going to leave the 52k engine and 52k trans bolted together. High probability that you will need to replace the slave cylinder by 80k miles. That is why I said at a minimum consider splitting the two and following my other DIY thread instructions in swapping the slave cylinder studs.

If you do #2 then you should do #4 since you only want to drop the oil pan once, remember there are gaskets, and bolts that need to be refreshed, so depending on which brand bearings and bolts you chose, it is 600-1000+ for these 2 steps. See this for how to do the bearing and Internal vanos line job. It can all be done in car. I'd much rather do the hp vanos line with engine out of the car on a stand. Complete list of parts numbers and optional other stuff. D.I.Y. Instructions for BMW E60 M5 Rod Bearing Replacement | German Auto Solutions
can of worms.

Unless you have the BMW engine stand holder (usually only dealers have this) when you mount the engine on the engine stand, I doubt there will be clearance unless the clutch is removed from the flywheel. There just is not enough room with universal engines stands between the mounts and the block to accommodate the clutch mounted to the flywheel. This then requires the BMW 212300 tool, again, to remove the clutch assy. can of worms.

The car is not reliable. It is fun, powerful, loud, great for software savvy folks, good looking but not reliable, which is why they are so inexpensive now. This may upset many people on this forum but it is the objective truth. If you are reading this post then you're probably inclined to agree.
 
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