E39 M5 S62 engine power wins class in Vegas 300 SCORE race (pic's)

[THRILOS5]

Lscman,
my post might sound like a 10 year old in amazement but is just a metaphor to what I meant about the durability of the s62,
a lot of people in here read about other members problems and they think that their motor is a ticking time bomb waiting to explode which is far from the truth

back on topic:
of course any serious race team will inspect and proactive replace bottom end parts as needed, but assuming beeing replaced with OEM parts and run hard during race conditions speaks volumes about the s62's durability

[Lscman]

Originally Posted by THRILOS5

Lscman,
my post might sound like a 10 year old in amazement but is just a metaphor to what I meant about the durability of the s62,
a lot of people in here read about other members problems and they think that their motor is a ticking time bomb waiting to explode which is far from the truth

back on topic:
of course any serious race team will inspect and proactive replace bottom end parts as needed, but assuming beeing replaced with OEM parts and run hard during race conditions speaks volumes about the s62's durability

OK...so we're on the same page with that article, but I gotta strongly disagree with your downplaying of risk. Anyobdy with a well-maintained car with moderate miles who respects their car is probably safe wrt motor failure. However, demographics of S62 ownership is quickly changing. The typical n-th owner of a weathered $20K M5 today is likely exceeding the 100K mi barrier. These are generally young, aggressive, competitive & very nieve guys with no wallet or experience. Their first "upgrade" might be an extended RPM chip so they can "win" at their first track event. Service history, what's that?? Oil viscosity, what's that?? This low oil chime is annoying...Man, we're gonna wring that S62 for all it's worth and pass everybody like they're standing still. Cool. Well, if this car survives beat runs around town on week#1, good luck because they probably don't even know to run their oil level a little high at the track and check it between runs. Maybe check it next month or I'll try to remember to ask daddy to check it later. Did the owner assume the dealer changed the oil on this as-is trade-in or auction car? I'm not betting on those glorious S62 motors because that's a classic ticking time bomb scenario. Such a convergence of gross neglect, abuse, 6 figure odometer reading and/or extended RPM chip has nothing to do with glowing testimony coming from responsible and diligent S62 competition racers who maintain full service logbooks & rebuild yearly. To extrapolate or draw a parallel between these two situations only encourages more owners to run it like they stole it, which has proven to wipe bearings and/or throw rods on S62 under certain conditions.

If you want to abuse hardware or wring a high mile car to redline without assuming huge financial exposure or race a motor with 100K+ mi with no service history that's never been rebuilt, you really need to purchase a 5L Mustang, not a 5L E39. A Mustang with 150K mi will generally survive an afternoon at the track with the crankcase about 3 quarts low on oil that hasn't been changed for YEARS. If it doesn't survive, you laugh and pay $250 for a used motor and a case of beer...throw it in the next weekend.

IMO, the S62 in a true race environment with requisite maintenance and rebuilds does not speak volumes about longevity, reliability or durability of S62 motors with elevated mileage. The bearing wear issues surface beyond 50K miles and this is territory that is NEVER explored in competition. The most competitive race motors generally have the shortest lifecycle between rebuilds. I do not use hype or testimony of racers to help me select street hardware or lubrication products. The duty, maintenance & rebuild practices between street and competitive racing differ wildly.

[THRILOS5]

yes we are...

isn't that the scenario for most street motors though??

except the "legendary" 5.0L

[Lscman]

Originally Posted by THRILOS5

yes we are...

isn't that the scenario for most street motors though??

except the "legendary" 5.0L

Well....only if they have racey redlines that are frequently explored. This is generally not the case.

The E39 S62 has one of the highest rev limit settings found in a large street V8. BMW engineers pushed the envelope, IMO, a bit too far to expect lifecycle to exceed 100K mi in the hands of all drivers. The S62 cam profile and engine breathing encourages extended use at peak RPM, so the bearings can get a workout and wear more quickly in the hands of certain owners. This racey calibration all fine and great when bearings are fresh and clearances are tight. However, this "extended headroom" racey tuning strategy specifically may lead to extra wear and stress on the rod bearings. Accelerated bearing wear leads to marginal oiling which tends to destroy motors. The S62 is super reliable at peak RPM until the bearing clearances become excessive from driving it in a racey fashion for extended periods.

If your S62 gets diligent maintenance and seldom sees RPM over 6K, then it will likely have low wear on it's bearings.

This is why 4.4L BMW V8's and pushrod GM Vette's and Ford 5.0L HO's are not seeing such recip assy troubles as they exceed 100K miles. These motors generally do not see elevated RPM over 6K, therefore they see much less bearing wear. Since their redlines are lower due to lower RPM tuning, they offer a greater margin for safety in senior years. You can take one of these cars to the track with much less risk of failing the recip assy.

If you WANT the same level of safety, risk and reliability from an S62, you would realistically need to proactively change the bearings or set the rev limiter around 6K for the life of the vehicle. This would prevent accelerated wear and it would also provide more margin of safety during flogging.

You take your pick...proactive bearing replacement, don't test high rev's often or accept additional risk.

A thoughtful balance between restraint (limited abuse) and accepting some risk (occasional beat run or track day) will work for most folks.

This issue boils down to safety margin and risk. Mass production pedestrian cars generally have very conservative calibrations. They are designed so a moron can beat on it for 10 years without bad results. Such cars seldom have market-leading performance stats. Unfortunately, racey calibrations & tuning that S62 needed to produce market-leading performance invariably comes wiith a few drawbacks. The rod bearing lifecycle issue resulting from elevated RPM is a notable example. Another E39 example might be the marginal durability of the world-class E39 lightweight aluminum rear axle carrier assembly which can not tolerate uncontrolled wheelhop caused by juvenile owners who wish to lay rubber from a stoplight like a ponycar.

[bugzy]

nice job Martin !

[Hawkwind]

Originally Posted by Lscman

If you want to abuse hardware or wring a high mile car to redline without assuming huge financial exposure or race a motor with 100K+ mi with no service history that's never been rebuilt, you really need to purchase a 5L Mustang, not a 5L E39. A Mustang with 150K mi will generally survive an afternoon at the track with the crankcase about 3 quarts low on oil that hasn't been changed for YEARS. If it doesn't survive, you laugh and pay $250 for a used motor and a case of beer...throw it in the next weekend.