m5board.com BLACK LIST

[Mark_m5]

I totally agree with Lscman. Public flogging of vendors who don't deserve a bad rep' but who are unfortunately embroiled in a bad deal with a grumpy customer, is not fair.

We can always check our local Better Business Bureau (at least in the U.S.) for complaint history. There, complaints are private unless a mediator is unable to resolve the complaint.

You might consider mediating complaints before airing them - but that's a lot of work. Maybe it's better to just kill this thread. There might be legal questions about libel.

[kees]

Ummm...we're missing the infamous RMS/Osh to start with.

[de Witt]

Originally Posted by Mark_m5

I totally agree with Lscman. Public flogging of vendors who don't deserve a bad rep' but who are unfortunately embroiled in a bad deal with a grumpy customer, is not fair.

We can always check our local Better Business Bureau (at least in the U.S.) for complaint history. There, complaints are private unless a mediator is unable to resolve the complaint.

You might consider mediating complaints before airing them - but that's a lot of work. Maybe it's better to just kill this thread. There might be legal questions about libel.

The BBB is a good tool, but they are not particularly reliable.

Libel? Nah. Have to look it up, but Im pretty sure that 3rd party posts cannot be a cause of action against the publisher (ie the owner) of an internet board. If Gman posts potentially libelous material, then there might be a cause of action, but servers are in SE and so is G. Sticky Wicket.

[Lscman]

Aside from perhaps Osh, sleazy tuners, vendors & mfrs rarely supported this forum. I'm sure a few sponsors have come and gone over years, but that's to be expected. Businesses have many options wrt advertizing and customer interaction. Sponsors seem to take more floggings here than at most other sites. Bad treatment must be avoided because no sponsor is going to want to pay for that.

With all due respect, I think frequent attacks on sponsors are largely due to the mentality of the typical M5 owner. I saw similar behaviors exhibited by the Corvette crowd until the forum mgmt clamped down. The typical M5 customer is very demanding, impatient and not so technically-oriented. When something goes awry, anger, finger pointing, attacks and legal threats seem common. Folks expect special VIP treatment with lots of good will gestures no matter who's at fault, what $ figure or profit margin is involved.

Unique parts for the low volume E39 M5 are very important to us. Mfrs need to be applauded and strongly encouraged to support this car. When something isn't perfect on some low volume product, we need to use restraint so this rare hardware doesn't die on the vine....supercharger kits & ala-carte suspensions come to mind.

This is not a Summit Racing or Ford Mustang crowd where customers willingly eat or modify parts that don't work as claimed. The USA gearhead crowd who buys ponycars is more likely to do their own repairs & mods while a car is still under full factory warranty. They don't particularly want a tech touching their car, even if it involves out-of-pocket $ and time to do it themselves...hence the backyard mechanic mentality.

Customers of non-sponsors don't come here to whine when something goes wrong because it has no leveraging effect.

[Nabio]

I agree with Lscman. I believe this will just create an incentive for companies to not sponsor or deal with M5Board members while adding extra risk to the prospect of creating a product for a low volume car.

I would support the addition of companies such as Race Technologies (or whoever that Brembo guy was from) or those that use multiple handles to . Those companies and their representatives who break those rules of conduct publicly--such as posting without identifying who they represent--should be punished publicly. Those companies who may have issues with m5board's administration or don't deliver on members should not be on this list. If indeed members are having issues with a certain vendor I guarantee they will share with all in the forum anyway and reach some sort of constructive solution that way. For example, I knew to avoid Fiber Design before this thread existed. A list for those types of issues puts M5board's administration right in the line of fire between both parties, and I'm not sure that's the best place to be.

I understand that you have an obligation to members and sponsors alike, but much of that obligation is met by just providing a forum for vendors and consumers to meet.

[Lscman]

I'd also like to note for the record that "treatment" of sponsors has shifted to become quite positive, over the last year. Restraint and patience is being exhibited by members...even a handful of jerks with thick skulls seem to "get it" now. I am hoping we move forward under a continuous improvement effort with forum mgmt's oversight & assistance.

IMO, the M5 community seems to have realized that we need to foster & applaud the efforts of mfrs & vendors who support the beast, instead of smacking them around in public.

[Sebring NL]

Lscman

I largely agree with your POV.

Only thing is, with the pricing of M5 part suppliers ( FI Dinan) I tend to think a little more care in aftersales is in order. I often wonder about how things work in the "expensive car tuning world" , as I have only experienced the "cheap car tuning world*" and I have never encountered some of the glitches in aftersales often described on this board.
IMHO, when paying $600 for a pair of headlights, it would be nice if the vendor puts some effort in aftersales.

In Holland, many people are involved in motorsport parts for single seaters. Not many of them make a living out of it though. Which results in bad after/pre-sales.I often found myself on the phone with the owner of "Dutch Racing Sport Parts Warehouse" 's wife, only to find out her husband is a plumber in real life and slings parts over internet in his free time so "please call back after 18:00". Learned the hard way to steer clear of those guys.

Wout

*that is cheap cars, not cheap parts FYI

[SoCalJD]

Originally Posted by Lscman

I'd also like to note for the record that "treatment" of sponsors has shifted to become quite positive, over the last year. Restraint and patience is being exhibited by members...even a handful of jerks with thick skulls seem to "get it" now. I am hoping we move forward under a continuous improvement effort with forum mgmt's oversight & assistance.

IMO, the M5 community seems to have realized that we need to foster & applaud the efforts of mfrs & vendors who support the beast, instead of smacking them around in public.

>>>

While I see your point, I'm not sure that indiscriment, unsubstantiated attacks on any company was Gustav's original intent....although that scenerio is certainly likely. I think that maybe this place should be a last result for people who feel they've been screwed, and that they should PM Gustav with the specifics. If he feels the situation has merit, maybe then it'll be posted publicly. There *should* be some way to warn the board that "XYZ Co collected $ from a few board members and never delivered the product" etc. Anyone can start a thread saying "XYZ Co screwed me" anytime they want, and others can leap to XYZ Co's defense, but if XYZ Co really did screw a few board members, and there's sufficient proof of that, they then should get blacklisted.

[Gustav]

True as well.

Originally Posted by SoCalJD

>>>

While I see your point, I'm not sure that indiscriment, unsubstantiated attacks on any company was Gustav's original intent....although that scenerio is certainly likely. I think that maybe this place should be a last result for people who feel they've been screwed, and that they should PM Gustav with the specifics. If he feels the situation has merit, maybe then it'll be posted publicly. There *should* be some way to warn the board that "XYZ Co collected $ from a few board members and never delivered the product" etc. Anyone can start a thread saying "XYZ Co screwed me" anytime they want, and others can leap to XYZ Co's defense, but if XYZ Co really did screw a few board members, and there's sufficient proof of that, they then should get blacklisted.

[Lscman]

Originally Posted by SoCalJD

>>>

While I see your point, I'm not sure that indiscriment, unsubstantiated attacks on any company was Gustav's original intent....although that scenerio is certainly likely. I think that maybe this place should be a last result for people who feel they've been screwed, and that they should PM Gustav with the specifics. If he feels the situation has merit, maybe then it'll be posted publicly. There *should* be some way to warn the board that "XYZ Co collected $ from a few board members and never delivered the product" etc. Anyone can start a thread saying "XYZ Co screwed me" anytime they want, and others can leap to XYZ Co's defense, but if XYZ Co really did screw a few board members, and there's sufficient proof of that, they then should get blacklisted.

Hey, I really DO understand the intent & goal.....it's commendable.

A dedicated thread of complaints against sponsors (however rare) will slowly develop, even if customer satisfaction for a given vendor is top tier (98+%). For every 1000 positive sales transactions, a single customer might experience their worst nightmare...self-induced, murphy's law, factory defect, installer brain fart or whatever. This angry guy will post claiming sponsor XYZ sux & they may even have factual info to support their position.

With this thread, a sponsor may have a 99.5% positive satisfaction rate and this will not be apparent at all. A similar list of complaints against non-sponsors will not exist because customers do not see this as an effective bully pulpit to announce negative experiences to get action. This initiative will give non-sponsors an unfair advantage wrt managing negative internet press and attracting customers. Gustav will simply not be contacted about non-sponsor issues.

The thread will be a lop-sided (negatively-biased) list of bad sponsor experiences that will encourage potential customers to buy from non-sponsors.

Gustav's offering to mediate or intervene sounds fine, but the thread will unfairly penalize sponsors only.

Until the forum administrators find an objective way to accurately measure customer satisfaction indexes for both sponsors and non-sponsors (as the ebay customer feedback & "star process" does), I think they should stay out of that business. The sponsor complaint thread will provide a very subjectively distorted, worthless and misleading picture. The result may be a loss of good sponsors and/or fewer benefits for members.