Off Topic ForumThis is the place for mature discussions not necessarily related to cars. This is however also moderated and only registered members are allowed to post. No religion and no vicious attacks.
I had no idea there was this big Hatfield and McCoy thing going on between the two boards and I strongly urge you to encourage your membership to give up on the Gustav bashing. I don’t know if it was the intent of the member mentioned above to vent to me about this board or what, but looking back on it now, it’s left a little bit of a bitter taste in my mouth.
If something like this happens again, I might not be as polite, do you understand?
Oh, this is rich. So, gustav comes to our forums and posts flamebait, posts videos with no Mercedes content in our Kill Stories forum (and videos with no BMW content in your own forum), then censors people for posting Mercedes videos, and deletes posts even attempting to discuss the matter.
He accuses members of insulting people when they did not insult people, in a thread where they, themselves are being insulted by BMW owners (with no moderation or action taken against them, of course) and when asked multiple times (and shown the posts themselves) to provide a single example of either of these members, Hilsman (who is still banned) and DerekFSU (who was banned) of any such violation, he refuses.
Why does he refuse? Simple: because any two year old can read the posts of Hilsman and DerekFSU and see for themselves that there *were* no insults, and there *were* no threats, and there *were* no violations. One cannot defend an indefensible position, and so he ducks it, just like my questions in this thread are being ducked.
Gustav then says, despite all evidence to the contrary, that he is not lying. Fine. Then please stop ducking the issue and prove it, and present any instance of Hilsman or DerekFSU either threatening or insulting anyone, ever, on these boards.
And while you're at it, please explain why it isn't lying for gustav to claim that the reason he moved my video into the OT forum is that it "had no BMW content", when in fact several of HIS OWN VIDEOS, which HE POSTED in the Race Stories here, HAD NO BMW CONTENT, along with many other videos by many other users. Then, then I tried to discuss it, he repeatedly deleted my posts. None of these posts had any insults; they simply asked why this was being done. For this I had my posts deleted, *and* one of your moderators call me names. For some reason, his posts were not deleted. I wonder why?
In all of these cases, gustav was making patently and demonstratedly false statements about his motivations for censoring and deleting people's posts, while simultaneously banning members. If this does not constitute lying, then what, exactly, WOULD constitute a lie?
He then comes back to our forums, and makes remarks which as our mods correctly pointed out would (and have) gotten MB enthusiasts banned and/or moderated here, people get mad about the hypocrisy, and flame him for his hypocrisy.
This is not "beating a dead horse", which is a simplistic attempt at diversion; it is pointing out the absolute gall for gustav to complain about being banned, given his past treatment of members here.
And your "solution" is for you to issue a veiled threat ("If something like this happens again, I might not be as polite, do you understand?"), and then virtually order our moderators to ask us not to call him out for it?? Wow. Truly mind-boggling.
What is truly remarkable is that no matter how often I've asked for a simple discussion of these facts, you all refuse to engage in one and instead use every cheap dodging tactic in the book: casting aspersions, silly allegories, substanceless, vacuous claptrap, anything but a balanced discussion of why, exactly, you feel gustav should be immune from moderation given his documented history of moderating people at the drop of a hat over here.
Which is because you've got the facts on your side? You could easily bury me and refute the factual, documented evidence of double standards and flamebait by gustav, but simply choose not to do so?
Horse hooey. I pinned you guys to the mat, and you've got nothing to counter it. Which is why you use non-debate and evasion which would earn you a big fat "F" in any debate course.
Again, why are you asking me about this? Why am I supposed to listen to you politely? Remember, one of our members brought all this up with me with no prompting on my part.
What is truly remarkable is that no matter how often I've asked for a simple discussion of these facts, you all refuse to engage in one
Improviz - you don't do simple discussions...
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You could easily bury me and refute the factual, documented evidence of double standards and flamebait by gustav, but simply choose not to do so?
Exactly. M5board could easily moderate or ban you but you're not. If M5board is based on overate moderation, hiding of facts and double standards wouldn't that be the easy thing to do?
I partly agree with your statements. Yes - there have been some errors made in the past by a number of people - on m5board but certainly also on mbworld. I'm sure you've been witness (and partly to blame) to some of them and I'm flattered that you think what goes on here is worthwhile enough to spend a significant amount of your time tracking, documenting and arguing about.
However you give no room for people to change their minds. People learn. Viewpoints change. People grow up. The world would be a pretty miserable place if eveyone kept holding everyone else accountable for mistakes they've made in the past forever.
Instead of discussing people's very obvious shortcomings (no surprises there - we all have them) it would be a lot more constructive for everyone including mbworld to hear your views on what is acceptable behaviour on posting links, videos and other material on messageboards.
What is truly remarkable is that no matter how often I've asked for a simple discussion of these facts, you all refuse to engage in one
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Originally Posted by kees
Improviz - you don't do simple discussions...
Well, I certainly hope they're not too complicated for you!
Seriously, though: guilty as charged; I am verbose, but hey: I enjoy writing!
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Originally Posted by Improviz_CLK55
You could easily bury me and refute the factual, documented evidence of double standards and flamebait by gustav, but simply choose not to do so?
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Originally Posted by kees
Exactly. M5board could easily moderate or ban you but you're not. If M5board is based on overate moderation, hiding of facts and double standards wouldn't that be the easy thing to do?
Well, that wasn't what I meant, but anyway, trust me: I can give you documented examples of my posts being deleted, and show you their contents. This does not mean (obviously, as I haven't been hit--yet--in this thread) that I'm arguing that in all cases it happens, but it does happen, far more than it should.
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Originally Posted by kees
I partly agree with your statements. Yes - there have been some errors made in the past by a number of people - on m5board but certainly also on mbworld. I'm sure you've been witness (and partly to blame) to some of them and I'm flattered that you think what goes on here is worthwhile enough to spend a significant amount of your time tracking, documenting and arguing about.
Sure. I do like M cars, in fact: just like Benzes, they have their strong points and weak points, and I took a serious look (and drive) of each before concluding that, for me, the CLK was the better car, but I would by no means be so presumptious as to argue that this makes the CLK a "better car" than the M3 (the M model I was looking at at that time), as a few of your members are, sadly, wont to do, both here and at our boards, which is one of the main reasons for the "Hatfield and McCoy" saga we're witnessing now.
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Originally Posted by kees
However you give no room for people to change their minds. People learn. Viewpoints change. People grow up. The world would be a pretty miserable place if eveyone kept holding everyone else accountable for mistakes they've made in the past forever.
Instead of discussing people's very obvious shortcomings (no surprises there - we all have them) it would be a lot more constructive for everyone including mbworld to hear your views on what is acceptable behaviour on posting links, videos and other material on messageboards.
Simple: no double standards. If gustav posts race vids in our kill stories forum and our mods don't touch 'em, then you guys shouldn't mess with race vids posted in yours. If your members come to our forums and argue politely about performance differences in the cars without getting whacked, then so too should our members be allowed to do the same here. Of course, blatant violations of the TOU should be dealt with, and honestly imo I think in some cases our mods are a bit too lax in this department, but I'd rather see them err on the side of free speech than be hair-trigger types; here it seems that too often the opposite is the case, which explains (along with what we view as trolling by certain people, including Gustav; come on, you really don't think it's at the very least provocative to post those things there??) the anger felt by many over there.
Obviously, things are never going to be quantifiably, exactly the same, but they could definitely be a lot more even-handed than we've seen in the past, I hope you would agree!
Having said that, I honestly have not spent as much time perusing these boards since the instances I laid out above transpired, as quite frankly they left such a bad taste in my mouth that I'd pretty much washed my hands of the place. But I'm intrigued by your comment that things have gotten better, and am enheartened by the significantly more hands-off approach you guys have taken to this thread, although I would expect such an approach to be taken in this thread in any case: it would be, after all, remarkably stupid for you guys to start deleting posts in a thread started by gustav about moderation at our boards.
So, I'll wade back in, in lurk mode, and have a look-see...if as you maintain things have lightened up and gotten more even-handed outside the confines of this particular thread, I'll gladly raise a toast.
Seriously, though: guilty as charged; I am verbose, but hey: I enjoy writing!
Really? I'd never have guessed...
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Sure. I do like M cars, in fact: just like Benzes, they have their strong points and weak points, and I took a serious look (and drive) of each before concluding that, for me, the CLK was the better car, but I would by no means be so presumptious as to argue that this makes the CLK a "better car" than the M3 (the M model I was looking at at that time), as a few of your members are, sadly, wont to do, both here and at our boards, which is one of the main reasons for the "Hatfield and McCoy" saga we're witnessing now.
I think on both messageboards - heck even on the SRT8 messageboards you'll find most members are carguys first and foremost. The dividing into camps is only done by a few pretty insecure people who somehow need to be part of a group.
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Simple: no double standards. If gustav posts race vids in our kill stories forum and our mods don't touch 'em, then you guys shouldn't mess with race vids posted in yours.
Well the moderating here is pretty straightforward:
* E60 M5 forum contains only posts that are relevant to the E60 M5
* General Sportscars contains posts relevant to any piece of cool machinery
* Race Stories contains race stories
* Off topic contains everything else - like this thread
etc
Of course there will always be some double standards...for example the videos that were made on the airfield took a lot of hard work and time. So posts that are theoretically off-topic such as the video of the F430 vs Z06 were left in the E60 M5 forum for a couple of days to make sure everyone who wanted to see them saw them. But that's the perogative of being a moderator.
For some threads there is some slack cut to long-time boardmembers or special occassions - for example someone showing pictures of their Ford GT or Ruf Porsche. But in general - 99% of the time - we try to be consistent and move stuff to the relevant forum quickly. It's very rare a thread is deleted although sometimes it might take some effort to find a moved thread back if it's not obvious to the poster that it was moved.
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If your members come to our forums and argue politely about performance differences in the cars without getting whacked, then so too should our members be allowed to do the same here.
What our boardmembers do somewhere else is beyond our control. And you can't hold the moderators here responsible for people who at the end of the day are only names behind an email account. And who on the most part have little more connection to this messageboard than having registered an account.
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Obviously, things are never going to be quantifiably, exactly the same, but they could definitely be a lot more even-handed than we've seen in the past, I hope you would agree!
But I'm intrigued by your comment that things have gotten better, and am enheartened by the significantly more hands-off approach you guys have taken to this thread, although I would expect such an approach to be taken in this thread in any case:
Well - things haven't gotten much better. I'd like to entertain the illusion that it was always pretty good already. :P
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it would be, after all, remarkably stupid for you guys to start deleting posts in a thread started by gustav about moderation at our boards.
If done properly you wouldn't know it happened would you.
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So, I'll wade back in, in lurk mode, and have a look-see...if as you maintain things have lightened up and gotten more even-handed outside the confines of this particular thread, I'll gladly raise a toast.
Well - I'm sure you'll still see mistakes being made and inconsistencies. But do try not to let it get to you and to enjoy some of the cool stuff that is posted on this messageboard - for example the airfield event that Gustav put a lot of time and effort into organising.
And I'm sure I speak for most members here that I would love to see yourself or others - whatever forum it's posted on - show some cool stuff as well. Something with Brabus, Kleeman or Renntech cars, the new E63, CLK-GTR, whatever - the real carguys will always enjoy it no matter what brand of car it is. You certainly have demonstrated you possess the writing skills.
I find it pathetic that the other mods/admins on this site have to moderate not only their 20K + members but yet they spend probably an equal amount of time moderating Gustav's actions...your own ADMIN!
It's sad to see that you have to defend his childish actions time and again, knowing that it's only a matter of time until Gustav shows poor judgement AGAIN
I find it pathetic that the other mods/admins on this site have to moderate not only their 20K + members but yet they spend probably an equal amount of time moderating Gustav's actions...your own ADMIN!
It's sad to see that you have to defend his childish actions time and again, knowing that it's only a matter of time until Gustav shows poor judgement AGAIN
Oh please...!
Is that the extent of your input ?
To start another load of cr@p.
What are you here for ?
If you are here to enjoy this board, then do so.
Dont start this who did what, why & when again.
Not constructive in any way.
This thread is worn out by at least three laps round the track too many.
I've absolutely no axe to grind either way & I dont get paid to Moderate or any other perks.
Gustav & Kees may not Moderate this thread for as long as it has taken to run its course, but I will if this kind of repetitive fire starting continues.
Wow. Truly mind-boggling.
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