Living with a Supercharged M5 from Discovery Automotive

[Black M5]

Originally Posted by Greco

Stop using dyno's as excuses. Dinan claimed 470 got 420, maybe they didn't want to push the envelope

Oh an excellent excuse. Now you pay 20,000 + for a detuned converstion that could be pumping 470? Besides, i have made my decision and am not interested in Dinan nor want to talk about them

[Greco]

Originally Posted by Black M5

Oh an excellent excuse. Now you pay 20,000 + for a detuned converstion that could be pumping 470? Besides, i have made my decision and am not interested in Dinan nor want to talk about them

Who knows, maybe they did find 470 but realized that there might be problems arising with it. No one really knows except Dinan, but their fault was infact advertising 470hp. Yes I said they probably don't want to push the envelope because they also provide warranty on your engine. I'm sure they would be happy to provide 470hp to clients who renounced their warranty with Dinan. Finish the quote not just half of it to get your point across because no one likes a smart ***.

I really do hope your experience does turn out to be the complete opposite of Brian's.

[phoenix2005]

Originally Posted by Richard in NC

I too have been following all of these threads with interest. It is unfortunate that issues like these occur but super charging an M5 is obviously not a bolt in process as of yet. There are bound to be many facets that take time to iron out and the first customers are those that are stuck waiting and paying to get all the issues resolved. It is easy to see why Dinan has taken so long to release their product. But, since customers have been begging for a supercharged M5, there has been a market for other companies to try first. RMS tried to deliver but couldn't. I believe that D/A has the integrety and ability to deliver a good product but it is unfortunate that bblock1114 and others have to go through the trial and error process to end up with packages that work to perfection and suit a customers budget and needs.

Richard

It is not fair to say we could not deliver a reliable M5 SC package. In fact RMS is the only company that has delivered a reliable forced induction package on the M5. Our first car was Black M5. He punished that car on a daily basis in the desert heat of the middle east for many months. The engine failure was due to a miss-shift over rev- I have photos of it . No burned pistons, no detonation, just 4 bent valves. We can only build the car. We can't hold your hand when your driving it.

M5 number 2 was done in NY. I flew there to install it myself. The install was done at RMP racing. (great shop) Dave Palumbo owns the car and drives it on a daily basis. That's over 2 years now. No CELs, no problems what so ever. The m5 was just featured in a magazine, something Exotics ??, not sure of the name. Maybe one of the board members can point you at the article. I don't pay too much attention to the press stuff.

Cars number 3,4,5 and 6 where hijacked by Bill Knobloch while he was posing as a business manager. In guise he was to help me reorganize my business to "The Next Level". When are you guys going to wake up? Bill is nothing more than a con man with the pipedream to be a Tuner. I keep telling you people to look him up in the Sacramento court records to see how many mom and pop businesses and larger he has scammed.

Enough out of me.

Osh

[RRoberts]

I probably should stay out of this discussion. But I have some hard-earned knowledge that may help place this thread in perspective. I have been involved with cars (and bikes and trucks) modified for high performance for more than 40 years, and have seen many things both good and bad. I have worked professionally in the automotive industry, have designed and manufactured race parts at various times, and still work part-time as an engineer and fabricator at a race shop. Plus own and drive an HP car in BMWCCA club racing.

This is a cautionary tale for all those who desire to modify their cars, E39 M5 or otherwise, for improved performance. First and foremost, you really need to understand what you are getting into both as a car owner and the person paying the bills. Anything (and I mean anything) that adds engine power or otherwise improves vehicle performance is a trade-off at best. Something is given up for something gained. If it were that easy, the manufacturers would already have done it.

Once we move beyond proven parts (exhaust, headers, CAI and the like) and into first-of-a-kind modifications, the best results are obtained when the car owner and the shop performing the modifications each understand and discuss fully the technical principles behind the individual modifications being considered, what other aspects will be affected, and what results are likely to follow. This in conjunction with recognition of how close to the technical edge the modification(s) will place the car/engine in terms of what has previously been done with success. Brave pioneers tend to get killed by the native inhabitants, to coin a phrase (without meaning offense to anyone). On top of these considerations, there is an element of trial and error in any modification that is attempted for the first time (think ultra-thin S62 cylinder liners). But if the decision is made to go ahead regardless, all concerned are it is hoped doing this in recognition of both the desirability of the potential improvement and the old saying "you have to pay if you want to play".

The opposite extreme, that where the car owner blindly trusts the modification shop to be all-knowing, wise in all judgements made, and able to do the "right thing" without exception is a recipe for broken hearts and subsequent hard feelings. Recent history has provided lurid stories concerning Henessey and RMS, but these are by no means the only examples. In these two cases, the issue would appear to be more a financial failure (i.e., spent the customers' deposits on other expenses) rather than lack of technical ability. I cannot speak to the present situation based on personal knowledge so I won't. But none of the incidents cited so far seem out of place in the "early days" of an attempt to push an already highly stressed 5.0 Liter street engine, having quite complex and fully modern engine controls to 100 HP per Liter at the rear wheels. This is not a small block Chevy we are talking about here, where the formula for big power was worked out decades ago. Incidentally, by the same trial and error process and with many broken or ruined (albeit less expensive) parts.

One last comment, and please pardon me if we are all tired of M5 flywheel posts. Failure of the (apparently) stock 850Csi clutch and UUC flywheel friction surface insert should not come as a particular surprise. There is a fairly poor heat transfer path between the steel insert (where heat is generated when the clutch slips) and the larger aluminum flywheel (where heat can be absorbed and dissipated). This is due to the mechanical contact between the two pieces, held together by a pattern of bolts or rivets. Once the steel insert gets hotter than the surrounding aluminum (due to the poor heat transfer), the steel insert starts to expand around the restraining bolts and lift away from the aluminum flywheel. This reduces heat transfer path still further and the problem is exacerbated. The steel insert starts to take on a three dimensional shape not unlike a tufted mattress. This then presents less surface area to the clutch disc, which promotes more slippage and more heat, followed by more distortion, and so on. This is known as a self-aggravating malfunction. I have seen many aluminum flywheels following such use that have a regular pattern of blue spots on the steel friction surface between the bolts representing the high spots, as well as some that show permanent "tufted mattress" deformation and a few where the steel insert has cracked radially to relieve the thermal stress due to overheating. These are race parts, where there should be very little clutch slippage in use. This is why the auto manufacturers do not use this method of construction. A composite aluminum/steel flywheel is very intolerant of clutch slippage, and should be run with a quite stiff clutch if it must be run on the street. You will not see these flywheels on dedicated drag race cars. Mark (MIB) took the better approach for a street car with his one piece all steel flywheel.

Regards, Dick Roberts

[chunpng]

Dick,

Excellant insight, as usual. I just wish to add a tiny little bit.

While tuning companies are technically on the fore-front of the technology edge, and we rely on them to implement the desired goal, I think the car owners, who eventually pays the bills, should do some research on the feasibility of the technology before opening the check book and say go. Further, we (owners) must understand our priorities. If pure unadulterated speed, and magazine-test type of driving is the goal, then longivity must be a non-issue. At the end of the day, we know (by hard-earned experience) that they don't co-exist. That's why race cars are fully re-built so often. Case in point. RMS does not touch the engine internals and lower the compressions with their systems. They did not add cooling devices etc. Yet some owners want to run high and full boost and get 600 RWHP. That engine will last only if one lives in Fantasy-Land. If RMS is truely an experienced tuner, they would recognize this. If an owner did not educate himself on the very basic relationshp between HP and heat (generation and dissipation), they stand to be taken by unscrupolous shops.

If we don't get educated, yet expect perfection, and don't get that after we paid the piper, we need to share the blame.

Just my two cents.

CP

[Jayson]

Well said posts.


Stock engines tend to be reliable because they are not on the edge, the more power you want out of it, the more you put it on the edge and somtimes go over...Like race engines that are on the edge many last 500miles or only a few races at a cost of 100,000 grand somtimes. Hondas are reliable because they are not pushed hard (till ricers destroy them )

That said I understand the need to make the car yours and push it to the limit, and like it, but somtimes you just have to get a different car.

[Carrera2RS]

I do wish tuners would all quote and deliver hp and not sell on unrealistic quotes. Anyone spending serious money should be quoted and delivered realistic figures.

I'm very sorry to hear about the problems experienced by board members after shelving out large amounts of cash. The problem is development time is expensive and adding reliable hp takes development time and therefore expense......

I have modified numerous vehicles and try to take an intelligent pioneering attitude working with developers. If you don't then you have to try a proven formula from a company like AMG / Schnitzer / Dinan (possibly, don't know them in Europe) etc.

This reminds me of the 1000hp thread, sorry but 1000hp from an M5 engine simply won't happen................... Not on anything less than a Le Mans budget.................

[bbloch1114]

Originally Posted by MIB

Totally Agree Kees.

I have an Uber clutch, that takes all soughts of abuse and laps it up. But I still occassionally if I don't launch correctly, get the dreaded axel hop. I always abort when it happens.

I still have never broken anything.

On a quick side note to my clutches strength, I was approaching some lights quite quickly, the other day.

It was a red light so I started down the gears. Just as I was about to grab 2nd, the light changed to green, so I dropped the clutch with plenty of gas. The tires absoloutly lit up. Talk about a HUGE smile.

It was the first time I had done that and had the Tires just fry as I was launching from a running start. I would have been doing 30 mph, and the tires just screamed. I would not even attempt such abuse in a stock car. You would fry the clutch in a second.

Sorry, I just had to share that quick Beast moment. You know when its just you and your Beast and open road, you get the green and you nail it.


Brian,

I feel your pain. Its been a long frustrating process. You did make an interesting point, That no body pays to have a S/C for the purpose of driving slow. Whilst that is true, in D/A's defence, he claims you said you wanted a nice Streetable feel clutch. Which is what he gave you.

Having been through the whole clutch deal, its a sliding scale. It really is which side of the scale your prefference sits.

I can see how D/A were trying to give you what you wanted. Its a shame, most of the problems seem to be communication problems, that No-one really is to blame, sometimes things just don't pan out, the way all expected them to. I don't see any Malice or illwill or In-competence on D/A's part. There storey is totally different from RMS.

My 2cents.


MJ

FYI -- the clutch I have now is a streetable, smooth and light clutch -- and it can handle 800 HP -- no excuses for putting in a weak clutch except lack of experience.

I'm glad you don't see any problems with waiting for 5 or 6 months to get your car back and then having it for 8 months after that without the promised power, without a functioning A/C, with a new a very strong vibration, with stalling at idle for the first 2 or 3 months. No, all of that was just great -- that's exactly what I wanted after $38,000.

You know, don't get me wrong, Bill is a good craftsman and for the most part, he does very nice work. I'm sure that when he has more experience with these cars there will be less problems. The problems start when there is a problem -- that's when Bill suddenly stops answering the phone as much and that's when the emailed questions go unanswered. Now if that's okay with you, that's great, but I suspect there are others out there that wouldn't be as happy and positive as you seem to be about this situation if it were to happen to them.

[jimmyz2]

"Case in point. RMS does not touch the engine internals and lower the compressions with their systems. They did not add cooling devices etc."

Who do you think developed the CF intake cover with the aftercooler for the S62?It is my understanding it was RMS.

[Gustav]

There is not much we can do here than:

• Let all the parties voice their concern (RMS, D/A and the customers)
• Be civil and avoid personal attacks
• Opinions voiced about companies involved is based on personal experience

If anyone think a post is out of line jsut e-mail me: gustav@bmwm5.com and we just have to go through this and hope everybody will get their point across and people will learn from this.