Living with a Supercharged M5 from Discovery Automotive

[MIB]

Originally Posted by Rob Levinson

LOL!!! No, it's not your "carbotic" material that I am aware of.

- Rob

I reckon it would be close. Porsche cup guys use it. Thats the secret to the street ability. If it isn't it, its something really similar.

[bbloch1114]

Originally Posted by Rob Levinson

Bryan, my commentary in this thread was simply to bring the entire picture into the focus of reasonable reality... not to "throw anyone under the bus" so to speak, but to keep a heated situation from becoming unreasonable.

I take exception to this comment:



This is simply untrue. Please don't make it sound like I was ducking your questions! The timeline of our conversation on that subject is precisely as follows:

Feb 8th, 5:52pm - You sent me pictures and asked me what clutch it was in an e-mail. That e-mail was sent after I had left the office that evening (a rare early night for me), and I received the e-mail at home.

Feb 8th, 5:58pm - When I got the e-mail at home, I replied that from what I could tell from the pictures, it was either a BMW clutch or Sachs clutch... it's difficult to tell visually without looking up the part numbers printed on the surface, and I did not have that information at home.

Feb 8th, 7:57pm - You reply that you would like to know which clutch it is. It was not apparent that I was at home and could not actually answer you exactly other than my answer of it being BMW or Sachs.

Feb 8th, 10:13pm - (Yes, I am still answering e-mail this late at night.) I clarify that the answer will have to wait until morning - "I'll be able to tell you tomorrow when I am back in the office... can't tell from the pics because the BMW parts are marked Sachs, and the Sachs parts are often marked with the same component (spring cover) sub-numbers."

Feb 9th, 8:23am - I arrive at the office the next morning to find your reply that you have already called the dealer and determined that it is a BMW clutch. I don't know how you got a BMW parts guy that early in the morning, but kudos to you! Question answered by your detective work.

If you want the transcript of this e-mail exchange, you can download it right here:

http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/BLOCH_CLUTCH_QUESTIONS.txt

I really did not want to "get into it" with you - I certainly have no beef with you - but your version of events is not entirely accurate:




Not the way that I recall the conversation. Clutches, just like brake pads and tires, carry a warranty that covers defects in materials and workmanship. There is no "blanket warranty" that covers such things regardless of what has been done to them. I identified that clutch as having been excessively slipped - not just slightly slipping, but spun up as though the gas pedal was held down without the car moving, and the clutch cooked. That's driver abuse, even if the wrong clutch material was chosen as appropriate for you.

As you yourself stated repeatedly (and I quote from your e-mail), " BBLOCH: Again though, none of this is your fault or your problem."

Again, as to why that particular material was chosen for you is not for me to answer.



Again I am caught answering at home without hard data... but I quoted you precisely my cost on the part, much less than $900. SPEC lists $1025 as the MSRP, and our "standard" price on SPEC is 15% less than MSRP. Doing the math, I certainly would not have quoted you $900 when our standard price is $871.25 for the Stage3.

Bill didn't charge you $3000 for a clutch... he charged you for a lightweight performance flywheel with a genuine BMW ignition trigger ring built in, a new slave cylinder, new BMW installation hardware, and a complete clutch kit. Obviously, the clutch cost alone is just a part of the complete kit price.

As for "just going into production" - the obvious answer is he was referring to the V12 conversion flywheel for the M5, not the actual clutch part. Think about it - the flywheel/clutch package is advertised as using the 850CSi clutch, it's certainly not a surprise!




Well then where the distorted information is coming from is a mystery. The very same David Norton at SPEC has repeatedly told me the exact opposite.

From dealing with performance clutches now for many years, the whole idea of a multi-puck (technically multi-finger - you can have multiple pucks on a completely circular backing disk) is to create a smoother engagement as the fingers engage sequentially. The stiff solid disks used for the ceramic/metallic materials does not have the "marcels" (cushioning springs between the halves of a dual-layer organic disk) that soften engagement.

SPEC's continuous-face "F" series clutches have just gone into production - in fact, we're testing one now in a supercharged M3 at SPEC's request. This new material - which was unavailable until just about two weeks ago - is supposed to be something "special" which fixes the abrupt-engagement complaint that people have with the standard ceramic/metallic materials. There was certainly no "deception" or anything nefarious whatsoever. If SPEC had chosen to give you a clutch with this new experimental material, then so be it. It certainly had nothing to do with saving a paltry $125. I spend more on coffee every month!




Congratulations. They gave you a sponsored price (below my cost) and a sales pitch on their new clutch. Very nice of them.




Believe it. We collect the original M5 flywheels - again, spelled out on our website, there's a refundable $600 core charge - because the ignition timing rings are removed and re-used in another lightweight V12 conversion flywheel. Your M5's ring has been removed, reconditioned, and is now in someone else's M5 on their lightweight flywheel/V12 clutch conversion. As for slave cylinders... they're consummables and it's a pleasant surprise when we find one that's a few years old and not leaking. Karl and Bill were not fibbing to you.




Every single other supercharged M5 that DA has turned out (and every twin-turbo 850 that Dinan has built over the years) uses the 850 clutch with whatever the installer determined was the right facing for that customer's needs.

That, by the way, may be the key to your entire issue on this point. What was your communication with Bill regarding why the standard BMW material clutch facing was chosen?

Good communication is the key to making big projects like supercharged M5s work. If this whole thing boils down to a miscommunication, I think that discussing it privately with Bill would have been the more productive course of action.

And again, Bryan, throughout all of this I have been offering you my advice and trying to help you as best I can. No need to bite the outstretched hand.

- Rob

Rob,

I didn’t bite the outstretched helping hand – the hand was calling me a liar, so I was just defending myself. I never thought you didn’t answer the question about the kit being yours because of you or company trying to duck responsibility, I figured you were put in an uncomfortable position by talking directly to me – who bought nothing from you – while knowing that the clutch that was put in was not the one you recommended. You shouldn’t have been in that position and as soon as I realized that this was the clutch Bill chose as opposed to the one you recommended, I knew that I had no beef with you.

Of course, I have a different version of events in my emails, memory, phone calls, etc., but I don’t thing that really matters here, what matters here is simply not standing behind work that was performed – period. Bill wrote about what my motivations were – but really, who cares about that except me? It’s irrelevant. I would think that the board members here only care about the truth. Anyway the details of what we discussed we’re really not relevant. I only have a couple of things to say to what you wrote:

1 – You said that every single other supercharged M5 that DA has turned out has the 850 clutch. My question is, what other Discovery Automotive supercharged M5s are there right now that are in their driver's hands? I believe there is only 1 -- mine. I think I would know best what it is like.

2 -- I did try to work things out with Bill before I went public -- and I let him know that I would pursue this publicly and legally. All I wanted was the money back for the new clutch which was a lot less than the $3800 -- $3500 (the kit minus the flywheel I guess -- of course, I can't tell how much that item was since it is not broken down on the DA invoice.) He wouldn't even answer the question. I would email him and ask him directly and he would take like two days to answer me and then not answer the question. He would however ask me how the KW coilovers felt, like we were buddies. He did finally offer to “chat next week” because he was too busy working on other people’s cars – but sorry, we’ll “chat next week” doesn’t cut it when I have continually asked directly – are you going to pay for this clutch repair or not. Yeah, that's my buddy -- ignore my direct question of whether or not you are going to pay and then and act like my buddy.

So, since he did not pay, I went public to let everybody know what I went through so they could factor that into their equation if they were to consider similar modifications. And as long as I was doing so, I figured why not tell everybody about the whole experience. Why not share the things that I had, up until now, decided to overlook? No reason not to is the way I see it. I kept quiet up until now because I felt some things were a learning process and some things were custom (not to mention because I was at Bill’s mercy in terms of any tuning, etc. at the time.) But after waiting months instead of weeks to get the car; after spending 6 times what I initially thought; and after all the problems that Bill calls “soft” (whatever that means) I have experienced during the last 8 months that I’ve had the car back – without ever even having the power that I paid for (remember, I have not driven it since Karl patched up the leaks and some bad signals, etc. so I have never yet experienced the full power) … to be told that a clutch with a total of 1500 miles on it is a “wearable” item – after being told how great it was and how it was worth the wait – well that was the straw that broke the camel’s back.

4 -- Anyway, I know that the $3000 included the whole kit -- I could have gotten a much stronger kit for considerably less -- let's leave it at that. Again though, this is not about your kits or your quality -- it's simply about Bill choosing the wrong clutch for the car and not standing behind his decision. He is actually trying to blame it on me -- like I knew what material to use. And any or you who really believe that I drove the car in a different way than I told Bill I was going to -- well, you'd be really easy to sell something to. I mean first of all, I was constantly asking Bill about fixing the axle hop so I could do smooth burn outs (that was not ever fixed and it was what caused the Dinan diff to go.) And by the way, you don’t hear me complaining about DA for that. No, only what he should be blamed for – the stuff he did. Anybody who is going to spend $40K to add 200 (really only 172) to an M5 is going to drive it hard – period. I drove mine at Sebring twice and Homestead once and hit an indicated 160 MPH on the way home. And I told Bill many times that I wanted to be able to take it to Sebring -- just like I had done before. The whole idea that I had a bad clutch in my car because it was my idea is asinine.

5 – I did not think that Karl was fibbing – just Bill and then only maybe. Don’t try to make me sound like I think everybody is lying to me and out to get me – it won’t work. You know that I told you that I really liked Karl.

Anyway, I am tired and going to sleep. By the way, did anybody notice that in Bill’s post (#51) yesterday on the link that is about RMS vs. Discovery Automotive vs. Dinan that Bill specifically said that the 1st problem I had was with the Dinan Rear end that I had recently installed (more like 2 years earlier). Today he remembered that the first problem was within the first 4 minutes of me driving the car when the Lexan window broke and the car was down for the whole first weekend. I’m sure he will remember a bunch of other things that I guess were so minor to him and he just forgot. Maybe now he’ll remember before I point them out in an attempt to put his spin on it. I hope he does, it will save me a lot of typing.

[kees]

Originally Posted by bbloch1114

I was constantly asking Bill about fixing the axle hop so I could do smooth burn outs (that was not ever fixed and it was what caused the Dinan diff to go.)

Axle hop seems to be inherent to the E39 M5 (and many other cars). I'd be surprised if it could be totally engineered ouit of the car without eliminating all rubber drivetrain components. This would make the car pretty undriveable.

Some mechanical sympathy is to be expected from the driver - if you get axle hop you should immediately abort. I haven't heard of anyone else killing the Dinan diff.

[MIB]

Originally Posted by kees

Axle hop seems to be inherent to the E39 M5 (and many other cars). I'd be surprised if it could be totally engineered ouit of the car without eliminating all rubber drivetrain components. This would make the car pretty undriveable.

Some mechanical sympathy is to be expected from the driver - if you get axle hop you should immediately abort. I haven't heard of anyone else killing the Dinan diff.

Totally Agree Kees.

I have an Uber clutch, that takes all soughts of abuse and laps it up. But I still occassionally if I don't launch correctly, get the dreaded axel hop. I always abort when it happens.

I still have never broken anything.

On a quick side note to my clutches strength, I was approaching some lights quite quickly, the other day.

It was a red light so I started down the gears. Just as I was about to grab 2nd, the light changed to green, so I dropped the clutch with plenty of gas. The tires absoloutly lit up. Talk about a HUGE smile.

It was the first time I had done that and had the Tires just fry as I was launching from a running start. I would have been doing 30 mph, and the tires just screamed. I would not even attempt such abuse in a stock car. You would fry the clutch in a second.

Sorry, I just had to share that quick Beast moment. You know when its just you and your Beast and open road, you get the green and you nail it.


Brian,

I feel your pain. Its been a long frustrating process. You did make an interesting point, That no body pays to have a S/C for the purpose of driving slow. Whilst that is true, in D/A's defence, he claims you said you wanted a nice Streetable feel clutch. Which is what he gave you.

Having been through the whole clutch deal, its a sliding scale. It really is which side of the scale your prefference sits.

I can see how D/A were trying to give you what you wanted. Its a shame, most of the problems seem to be communication problems, that No-one really is to blame, sometimes things just don't pan out, the way all expected them to. I don't see any Malice or illwill or In-competence on D/A's part. There storey is totally different from RMS.

My 2cents.


MJ

[Black M5]

I'm not here to argue but i would like to make afew comments.

First, for the those who are defending Dinan. Yes i did say that dynos vary from one to another and thats based on experience, reading/ hearing stories. And the reason why Dinan is under fire because they claim +70 hp for their S2 converstion that no one could verify independently and when confronted, he said that he cant take responsibility for other dyno readings and the only way for him to prove that the S2 really delivers the claimed 470 is for customers to run their cars on his dyno. Give me a break!

Secondly, D/A insiders have informed me that Bloch asked D/A to pay $1,500 for the clutch he purchased or else he will go public and say the truth. If paid, then he would say that the kit was amazing and ran without problems. Interesting.

Originally Posted by bbloch1114

I did try to work things out with Bill before I went public -- and I let him know that I would pursue this publicly and legally. All I wanted was the money back for the new clutch which was a lot less than the $3800 -- $3500"

Thirdly, its funny to see you Bloch reply to half the sentence and not reply to the second half. Rob Levinson told you that all SC D/A cars use 850 clutches and all the Dinan 850 twin turbo do as well. You only commented on the SC D/A cars and sidelined Dinan 850 TT. Very interesting indeed.

To the little minded board member who has nothing to do other than get on my case. I say get off my face cuz im not interested in your comments or thoughts towards my car or what i do. Besides, its my money and my car so scram and get a life.

[Ahmed]

Oh well.....

I am definitely getting my self an AMG!!!!

[Rob Levinson]

Originally Posted by bbloch1114

Rob,

I didn’t bite the outstretched helping hand – the hand was calling me a liar, so I was just defending myself.

Untrue facts are lies, right? I was not calling you a liar, just... there's a convenient expression to be used... "defending myself". Yeah. that works well.

Bryan, it doesn't feel too good when someone "calls you out" in a way that impugns your reputation, does it? Doesn't it really sting when you feel that it is unjustified? That, and a few other shoes for you to try on, might make you re-think how you have presented your situation and what it does to the real people surrounding it. The details don't even matter - your style of action matters.

You painted a picture of me as squirming out of your question. The stone-hard facts shown in our evening e-mail exchange show the exact opposite, yet impugning the character of people that work extremely hard to do the right thing by their customers seems to be a fun game on the internet message boards. No thanks. M5 owners should hold themselves to a higher level.

Of course, I have a different version of events in my emails, memory, phone calls, etc., but I don’t thing that really matters here,

Bryan - that's all that matters. When all of the events presented in your overall list of problems here come down your word against Bill's word, and your word has been out of line with what other evidence shows, what value do you have? The only version you should have in your head is the one as close to reality as possible. Reality might be that any little thing that happens with a "project" car with tens of thousands of parts is not a mortal sin committed by the person who souped up your car, and that working with him might be a better idea than working against him.

Look - I'm going out on a limb here by sticking my head into a hornet's nest with your bulletized list of grievances sketched out on a legal pad. Why am I doing that? Simple; that perhaps, just maybe, you can consider the idea that when you get into an "exploration" project like these supercharged M5s, that a few hiccups are to be expected, and that the sorting-out process may occassionally "inconvenience" you.

Part of the fun of modifying a car is getting there - the process of development, making the decisions that affect the performance, even sorting out the little details that come up later - knowing that you were involved in making the car what it is. It's incredibly boring to know nothing about the car, and to simply be handed the keys and drive it. Fast car. Woo hoo. Boring. You already had an incredibly fast stock 400hp M5 that you quickly lost interest in, right? Had you had no part in the building of a 500hp version, I think you would have been bored just as quickly. 600hp, 700hp, doesn't matter - your personal journey in the development of the car is what was really interesting, and would keep it interesting for much longer as you would be able to proudly say "I had a say in how this car was built."

The partner you chose for that journey is an honorable man, and I can't think of someone better suited, personable, and quality-driven to take you down that path. I think a disservice has been done to him over petty things that should have been resolved properly, not by getting nasty.

All the other bullet points are just mud in the water.

From what I have seen, the one thing about Bill is certain... he will bend over backwards for a customer - but never forwards.

I should give up on this already, but I am still going to try to help you. You wouldn't "lose face" by sitting down with Bill, discussing the issues, and working out a reasonable solution. If anything, that would make you a bigger man in the eyes of the M5 community.

- Rob

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Black M5

I'm not here to argue but i would like to make afew comments.

First, for the those who are defending Dinan. Yes i did say that dynos vary from one to another and thats based on experience, reading/ hearing stories. And the reason why Dinan is under fire because they claim +70 hp for their S2 converstion that no one could verify independently and when confronted, he said that he cant take responsibility for other dyno readings and the only way for him to prove that the S2 really delivers the claimed 470 is for customers to run their cars on his dyno. Give me a break!

Yet, I've heard praise about the S2 from so MANY S2 owners. Can't say the same of RMS, and DA now (still haven't made conclusions about DA). Seems reasonable to me that Steve wants to prove the hp gain by using his dyno rather than take the numbers of a competitive shop. He also said the car would only make 470 if it cound make 394 to start with. Also seems reasonable to me. Also, I don't read about S2 parts failures. Why don't you put away the continued Dinan bashing.

You say "Besides, its my money and my car so scram and get a life."

This is true, but you make it everyones interest with your numerous posts about RMS and DA. This is great because I'm interested, but you have to expect different opinions from some that reply.

This is what happens when a company like DA uses the Internet to do a lot of their new customer advertising. It presents the unhappy customer with a place to go for complaining. And this is why some of us manufactures don't resolve customer complaints in a public forum like this, it snowballs into a disaster.

[Greco]

Originally Posted by Black M5

First, for the those who are defending Dinan. Yes i did say that dynos vary from one to another and thats based on experience, reading/ hearing stories.

Yes but my experience tells me that dyno's don't vary 30-50whp unless your going from clayton dyno to mustang dyno. The majority of dyno's being used are dynojet's, mustangs, and dynapacks. There are the occasional superfllow's which are probably the best out there, but now way will you see 30-50rwhp difference going from mustang to dynojet to dynapak. I've had my car on dyno's numerous times, and the difference between mustang to dynojet was 1.6whp, and from dynojet to dynapak 1.5 whp. 30-50 whp difference imo is lack of or better yet improper tuning.

Stop using dyno's as excuses. Dinan claimed 470 got 420, maybe they didn't want to push the envelope that far as they have warranty issues to contend with. Smart imo, but I'm sure if you renounce their warranty they can bump you to 470 no questions asked.

[Black M5]

Originally Posted by Black M5

To the little minded board member who has nothing to do other than get on my case. I say get off my face cuz im not interested in your comments or thoughts towards my car or what i do. Besides, its my money and my car so scram and get a life.

Do you uinderstand English or do you want me to type in Arabic!