Jenin Probe Shock

[Black M5]

UNITED NATIONS

UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan told the Security Council last night a fact-finding team into the Jenin refugee camp should be disbanded after Israel said it would go on blocking the team from launching its work.

The development came despite UN officials voicing alarm at what they called a humanitarian crisis in the Palestinian territories, shattered by a devastating Israeli military offensive.

Annan's message was delivered by under-secretary general for political affairs Kieran Prendergast, who said "a thorough, credible and balanced report" into events at Jenin was impossible without Israel's full co-operation.

Israel's security cabinet yesterday voted 13-1 to refuse to allow the team to start work until certain "crucial conditions" were met.

Palestinians say hundreds of civilians were massacred in nine days of ferocious fighting after Israeli troops, tanks and helicopters swooped on the camp in the northernmost part of the West Bank on April 3.

In Ramallah, West Bank, chief Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erakat urged Annan to send his team to Jenin "immediately".

"We call on him not to give in to Israeli pressure," he said.

"If he doesn't send the team it will be extremely harmful for the UN and for international law."

Meanwhile, Palestinian information minister Yasser Abed Rabbo warned that the cancellation of the mission would only encourage Israel to continue its "state terrorism" against the Palestinians.

Copied from www.gulf-daily-news.com

[400hpJunkie]

Update on Jenin 'massacre':


JENIN, West Bank — Palestinian officials yesterday put the death toll at 56 in the two-week Israeli assault on Jenin, dropping claims of a massacre of 500 that had sparked demands for a U.N. investigation.

U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan suggested yesterday, in the wake of the Palestinian body count, that he may disband a U.N. fact-finding team that was to visit the camp to determine whether a massacre had taken place.

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20020501-5587072.htm

[Black M5]

I wouldn't believe that. The Palestinians said up to 500 and the Isrealis said 200.




This is an old report but notice what the hopsital director said about the death toll...

As Palestinians clawed through the rubble of Jenin refugee camp, the Israeli military offensive was last night condemned as "war crimes".

"There is evidence that what happened in the Jenin refugee camp and other places has reached such proportions that it can be termed war crimes," Saudi Foreign Minister Prince Saud Al Faisal said.

The information about these war crimes does not appear in the media as journalists were prevented from working in the Palestinian territories, he said in Moscow after meeting his Russian counterpart Igor Ivanov.

UN Middle East envoy Terje Roed-Larsen said the "morally repugnant" attack was likely to create fresh hatred.

"This is not in the security interest of Israel, it is the opposite," he said after touring the Jenin camp.

"The stench of death is horrible... We have expert people here who have been in war zones and earthquakes and they say they have never seen anything like it."

Larsen said international aid groups had been denied access to perform operations that could have saved Palestinian lives and Israel had not given food convoys proper access into the camp.

"This is a sad and disgraceful chapter in the history of the State of Israel," he said.

And as aid agencies called for international help to deal with the catastrophe, Palestinians welcomed a call by UN chief Kofi Annan to send in armed monitors.

Annan told UN Security Council members in a closed session that the international contingent should have "a robust mandate" under the UN Charter, which authorises the use of military force to impose council decisions.

While Israel said it had ended the Jenin offensive and would also leave Nablus, Jenin and parts of Ramallah by Sunday, its forces arrested a Hamas military leader, Hossam Atef Ali Badran, and killed three other Palestinians in the West Bank.

In Jenin refugee camp, residents gouged at a wasteland of destruction in a desperate search for missing loved ones as the stench of rotting corpses wafted over the scene.

There is no firm word on Palestinian casualties, but Muhammed Abu Ghali, director of Jenin hospital, said he expected the toll may hit 500.

(blob) The US last night told other Security Council members it would veto an Arab-sponsored call for a UN investigation of deaths in the Jenin camp during a public debate set for early this morning.

[400hpJunkie]

Originally posted by Black M5
I wouldn't believe that. The Palestinians said up to 500 and the Isrealis said 200.

This is an old report but notice what the hopsital director said about the death toll...

There is no firm word on Palestinian casualties, but Muhammed Abu Ghali, director of Jenin hospital, said he expected the toll may hit 500.

Believe what you will.

I have not seen an Israeli report that estimated higher than 55 dead.

Your sited article predated the one I sited, and the figures from them are quoted in the article I sited as incorrect initial estimates based on currect numbers from the Palestinians themselves.

As for what a hospital director said, the first line is "There is no firm word on Palestinian casualties". Now there is, from the Palestinians.

As for what a hospital director estimated, please explain how this person came to the estimate, and remember that it is an estimate and this person is no expert. (Estimates of the WTC massacre were off by more than 4000 initially, and these were from credible sources)

In the end, it is the Palestinians themselves that now say the death toll is much less.

[Black M5]

Yes you are correct that there is no firm word on the number of cassualties but him thinking it will be close to 500 indicates the seriousness of the situation by what he saw. I don't think anyone would predict 500 and then the actual toll coming to just 55. There must be something missing.

Yes the initail estimate toll of the WTC was higher but what was the final actual number ? Was it 600 ? Thats the kind of difference we are seeing from their claim to the confirmed number. Isn't the final death toll of the WTC about 2600 ? Thats about two thirds of the initial claim. Ok now if we apply that here, we will get about 300 people dead.

I have yet to see a Palestinian confirm the 55 death toll. Besides that, lets take it from a natural point of view ok ? If the death toll was really 55 and there never was a massacre in Jenin, why then doesn't isreal just let this investigation get underway and let the whole World know what exactly happened ? Why did the US threaten the Arabs states to Veto any calls for an investiagtion into the Jenin camp?

Honestly speaking, there is something that has happened (nobody knows exactly how serious it was) and that truth will not surface because Isreal is blocking it.

Look at the picture and tell me whether or not this can be justifiyable..
http://www.akhbar-alkhaleej.com/sour.../images/w1.jpg

No wonder this was said..
"The stench of death is horrible... We have expert people here who have been in war zones and earthquakes and they say they have never seen anything like it."

Regards,
Black M5

[msc3]

Originally posted by Black M5
.....
Yes the initail estimate toll of the WTC was higher but what was the final actual number ? Was it 600 ? Thats the kind of difference we are seeing from their claim to the confirmed number. Isn't the final death toll of the WTC about 2600 ? Thats about two thirds of the initial claim. Ok now if we apply that here, we will get about 300 people dead.
.....
Regards,
Black M5

Interesting logic. Lets try this one instead. The initial estimate of the number of dead in the WTC towers was around 30,000 based upon a calculation of the number of people in the towers at the time the planes hit. As people were accounted for, that number was reduced to about 5,000. That number was lowered to the final 2880 as duplicate missing person reports were eliminated. So if we apply that formula to Janin, we get about 50.

[Black M5]

Wow where did you get 30,000 from ? The first estimate i heard was 5000 could be dead. I never heard 30,000 to be honest.

P.S. you can't calculate the number of people who were in the towers and assume they would be dead. The building was still standing after the impact for a couple of hours with its emergency doors and paths clear for evacuation.

[msc3]

Originally posted by Black M5
Wow where did you get 30,000 from ? The first estimate i heard was 5000 could be dead. I never heard 30,000 to be honest.

P.S. you can't calculate the number of people who were in the towers and assume they would be dead. The building was still standing after the impact for a couple of hours with its emergency doors and paths clear for evacuation.

It was a very initial esimate of the maximum of dead if people were not able to get out . But you are missing the point of my post.

[Black M5]

I didn't miss your point. But what im trying to say is that estimate can't be taken seriously.... You say it was the very early estimate .. but how early ? right after the planes crashed ? I think the 5000 or 5500 stands because it was the one that stood for a long time till it gradually went down. And if you remember, they were saying that if 5000 stands then that will mean it will surpass the number people killed in pearl harbor which was the most ever on American soul.

Now on the other hand, the 500 estimate didn't come out at the time of the invasion and people said.. oh they destoyed so many houses and i bet about 500 people lived there and they must be all dead! but this estimate came from the director of the hospital.

55 people dead is just a cover up of the Jenin massacre. Just look at the pics.. There is NO escuse for that.. Im sorry but this is TERRORISM... The US has given the green light to Isreal to continue its massacre and the whole world was just watching with their hands on their faces. What happened to Bush's words to withdraw without delay ? When was that ? ummm a month ago ? Why did Powell travel to Morocco, Egypt, Spain and then finally showing up In Isreal after a good week? Do you think the Arabs don't know that he was buying time? Even the king of Morocco asked powell what he was doing in a country that was located on the north west coast of Africa! He told him he was in the wrong place and should have gone to the heart of the problem to try and resolve it ASAP.

Why do you think there is so much hate towards the US through out the Arab World ? Its because its biased towards Isreal.. You will see more and more hate towards the US's Governement if it doesn't fix its foreign policy soon.

Im not giving you opinions but facts.

Regards,

[WylM5]

Nothing to hide? Then let the UN inspectors do their job. Plain and simple Israel is starting to sound like Iraq crying of unfairness in the UN inspectors. IF THERE IS NOTHING TO HIDE YOU ONLY GAIN BY HAVING THE INSPECTORS TO VERIFY YOUR POSITION. I tend to side with Israel to protect itself but it would seem they crossed that thin line of protection to aggression.

As far as death toll estimates go, they are about as reliable as predictions of US presidential election results are on election day. In other words WAY off. I remember quite well that one news station I was watching gave an initial estimate of "around" 40,000 in the WTC attack. News agencies love BIG numbers because they gain your attention. If they can find one moron that knows nothing to say he thinks X amount of people are dead they will quote him on it. I work in a hospital and when some "event" happens we will almost certainly get phone calls asking us for "information" even though we are required not to give any out and they are usually calling the wrong dept. for that kind of information anyway. If I so pleased I could give them all kinds of BS info and have a good laugh as they go to press with this BS info.

One of you says it is 55 the other around 500. Because I am a slow man please explain to me at what number does it turn into a tragedy? 10? 20? 50? 100? 1000? 5000? What is an acceptable number? If one of them were my Mother would 1 then become too much? This applies to both Israelis and Palestinians.

Black M5 That picture you posted presents a very strong image. There are times that people need to be sacrificed for the greater good. Times like WWII when Japan, Germany and Italy threatened the entire world. But I am unsure as to whether or not the invasion and destruction of Jenin is one of those times. The question you asked "Look at the picture and tell me whether or not this can be justifiyable.. " is difficult to argue with. Just remember when the shoe is on the other foot and that picture is one of an Israeli child to ask yourself the same question. If both sides did this perhaps they would both be slower to act in anger and strive harder for peace.

WyldM5