Off Topic ForumThis is the place for mature discussions not necessarily related to cars. This is however also moderated and only registered members are allowed to post. No religion and no vicious attacks.
For your information, Black, historians still don't agree on the reasons the British approved the Balfour Declaration. One Israeli writer, Tom Segev, in the recent book, "One Palestine, Complete," argues that the decisive factor was that many Brits really believed the Jews controlled world finance and wanted to stay on their good side. Others, as you noted, cite a desire to get American Jews behind U.S. entry into the war, while others note a religiously based, philo-Semitic strain in British Christianity just then. The story that the declaration was a reward to Chaim Weizmann, a Zionist activist and scientist who developed synthetic acetone, which was important to the British war effort, is now considered apocryphal.
On the British departure in 1948, both Jews and Arabs accused them of treachery and betrayal, and the British were more than happy to leave - especially since India, as you noted as a reason for Britians support for Jews, had become independent, which made England-to-India transportation less important, so control of the Suez was no longer worth the headaches involved.
Israel declared itself a nation and has defended itself. That is why it is nation. It is no more legal or illegal than the US declaring itself a nation. To deny it is a nation, is futile. It would clearly be best for the Palestinians to negotiate a deal, so they can get and get on with life. If they were smart, they would aproach the conflict with peaceful approach and use this an appeal to conscience to get international support behind them and that would force Israel to negotiate on terms that would favor Palestinians. Israel would be forced to find a solution. You can get rather than try to beat a stronger military force with force. You can't argue with power, you can just hurl yourself futilely against it. But I fear that is what Palestinian leaders will continue to insist on happening.
"Israeli missiles killed four Palestinians, including a senior militant, as 12 Palestinian activists began a life in exile in different European nations yesterday.
Mahmoud Titi, a commander in the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, two subordinates and a civilian died when missiles hit them as they stood in a cemetery in the Balata refugee camp outside the West Bank city of Nablus, sources said.
Titi was a local Fatah chief who was wanted for his direct involvement in suicide bombing attacks on Israeli targets.
The 12, banished under a deal to end a siege by Israeli forces of Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity., left Cyprus where they had been holed up in a seaside hotel for almost two weeks.
A 13th activist, said to be the head of Palestinian intelligence services in Bethlehem, remains in Cyprus for now."
Of course this was in retaliation for the killing 2 Isrealis by a suicide bomber yesterday. First, the Isreali Govt. will only be satisfied if the number they kill is more than the number is killed Isrealis or else it would be a defeat just like in Southern Lebanon when it was 1-1. The rate here is 2-1. Secondly, I dont think anyonecan get lower than killing someone in a cemetery!!!
Originally posted by 400hpJunkie OK... so we've established now that the Israelis were there first.
So now you are taking the argument to who was there first. Ok so now you are telling me it should go back to the Jews just because they had a kingdom there 1260 BC ? Is there any proof that the first man to step his foot on Palestine was a Jew? Secondly, the Palestinians didnt defeat them so why should they be punished from something they didnt do?
"721 Assyrian conquest of the kingdom of Israel."
And if you are going to argue on the who was there first basis, then America really belongs to the red Indians since they were living here or do you buy that Christopher Colombus was the first to discover Amercica? Note, that this is recent history and not 3000 years old!!
Originally posted by 400hpJunkie If the Arabs beleive so much in a Palestinian state, why did they not give this to them when ALL of the currently "occupied" territories were held by Arab states?
Palestine was never occupied by the Arab countries. The Isrealis did and they continue to do so. Bring me proof if you want to prove me wrong. Let me take some phrases from the west "talk is cheap" "put up or shut up."
Originally posted by 400hpJunkie What was the date for the formation of the PLO?
1964-1968. I know where you are going and before you tell me its a terrorist organization, i will tell you that the Jews formed terroists organizations before that. --->
- March: formation of the Haganah, Jewish underground terror organization
- Irgon, another Jewish terrorist organization, formed by Zionist extremists and those who split from Haganah. Led by Vladimir Jabutinsky.
- October: Zionist revisionists leave the World Zionist Organization and establish a new one aiming at "liberating" Palestine and East Jordan.
Plus why let them establish a country after immigrating waves of illegal Zionist-Jewish immigrants which was only 6% after a wave of 40,000?
Second wave (around 40000 strong) of Zionist illegal immigrants arrive in Palestine and increase the Jewish percentage to 6% of the total population.
Why not elsewhere ? Or is it just becasue that there kingdom existed there 3000 years ago ?
Theodor Hertzl, a journalist from an Austro-Hungarian origin published Der Judenstaat (The Jewish State) advocating the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine or elsewhere .
Here they recognize the land is Palestinian and by them acquring land, they could make it their country on the long run if they acquire the majority which didn't happen.
JNF (Jewish National Fund) set up by the 5th Zionist congress to acquire land (in Palestine) and 'make it Jewish'.
Originally posted by 400hpJunkie What date did Israel win control of the "occupied" territories?
1948. It took over something that wasnt theirs (Palestine).
This is the answer since it answers you and sweatyteeth.
The UN Partition
Why did the UN recommend the plan partitioning Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state?
"By this time [November 1947] the United States had emerged as the most aggressive proponent of partition...The United States got the General Assembly to delay a vote 'to gain time to bring certain Latin American republics into line with its own views.'...Some delegates charged U.S. officials with 'diplomatic intimidation.' Without 'terrific pressure' from the United States on 'governments which cannot afford to risk American reprisals,' said an anonymous editorial writer, the resolution 'would never have passed.'" John Quigley, "Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice."
Why was this Truman's position?
"I am sorry gentlemen, but I have to answer to hundreds of thousands who are anxious for the success of Zionism. I do not have hundreds of thousands of Arabs among my constituents." President Harry Truman, quoted in "Anti Zionism", ed. by Teikener, Abed-Rabbo & Mezvinsky.
Was the partition plan fair to both Arabs and Jews?
"Arab rejection was...based on the fact that, while the population of the Jewish state was to be [only half] Jewish with the Jews owning less than 10% of the Jewish state land area, the Jews were to be established as the ruling body - a settlement which no self-respecting people would accept without protest, to say the least...The action of the United Nations conflicted with the basic principles for which the world organization was established, namely, to uphold the right of all peoples to self-determination. By denying the Palestine Arabs, who formed the two-thirds majority of the country, the right to decide for themselves, the United Nations had violated its own charter." Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."
Were the Zionists prepared to settle for the territory granted in the 1947 partition?
"While the Yishuv's leadership formally accepted the 1947 Partition Resolution, large sections of Israel's society - including...Ben-Gurion - were opposed to or extremely unhappy with partition and from early on viewed the war as an ideal opportunity to expand the new state's borders beyond the UN earmarked partition boundaries and at the expense of the Palestinians." Israeli historian, Benny Morris, in "Tikkun", March/April 1998.
Public vs private pronouncements on this question.
"In internal discussion in 1938 [David Ben-Gurion] stated that 'after we become a strong force, as a result of the creation of a state, we shall abolish partition and expand into the whole of Palestine'...In 1948, Menachem Begin declared that: 'The partition of the Homeland is illegal. It will never be recognized. The signature of institutions and individuals of the partition agreement is invalid. It will not bind the Jewish people. Jerusalem was and will forever be our capital. Eretz Israel (the land of Israel) will be restored to the people of Israel, All of it. And forever." Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."
The war begins
"In December 1947, the British announced that they would withdraw from Palestine by May 15, 1948. Palestinians in Jerusalem and Jaffa called a general strike against the partition. Fighting broke out in Jerusalem's streets almost immediately...Violent incidents mushroomed into all-out war...During that fateful April of 1948, eight out of thirteen major Zionist military attacks on Palestinians occurred in the territory granted to the Arab state." "Our Roots Are Still Alive" by the People Press Palestine Book Project.
Zionists' disrespect of partition boundaries
"Before the end of the mandate and, therefore before any possible intervention by Arab states, the Jews, taking advantage of their superior military preparation and organization, had occupied...most of the Arab cities in Palestine before May 15, 1948. Tiberias was occupied on April 19, 1948, Haifa on April 22, Jaffa on April 28, the Arab quarters in the New City of Jerusalem on April 30, Beisan on May 8, Safad on May 10 and Acre on May 14, 1948...In contrast, the Palestine Arabs did not seize any of the territories reserved for the Jewish state under the partition resolution." British author, Henry Cattan, "Palestine, The Arabs and Israel."
Culpability for escalation of the fighting
"Menahem Begin, the Leader of the Irgun, tells how 'in Jerusalem, as elsewhere, we were the first to pass from the defensive to the offensive...Arabs began to flee in terror...Hagana was carrying out successful attacks on other fronts, while all the Jewish forces proceeded to advance through Haifa like a knife through butter'...The Israelis now allege that the Palestine war began with the entry of the Arab armies into Palestine after 15 May 1948. But that was the second phase of the war; they overlook the massacres, expulsions and dispossessions which took place prior to that date and which necessitated Arab states' intervention." Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."
The Deir Yassin Massacre of Palestinians by Jewish soldiers
"For the entire day of April 9, 1948, Irgun and LEHI soldiers carried out the slaughter in a cold and premeditated fashion...The attackers 'lined men, women and children up against the walls and shot them,'...The ruthlessness of the attack on Deir Yassin shocked Jewish and world opinion alike, drove fear and panic into the Arab population, and led to the flight of unarmed civilians from their homes all over the country." Israeli author, Simha Flapan, "The Birth of Israel."
Was Deir Yassin the only act of its kind?
"By 1948, the Jew was not only able to 'defend himself' but to commit massive atrocities as well. Indeed, according to the former director of the Israeli army archives, 'in almost every village occupied by us during the War of Independence, acts were committed which are defined as war crimes, such as murders, massacres, and rapes'...Uri Milstein, the authoritative Israeli military historian of the 1948 war, goes one step further, maintaining that 'every skirmish ended in a massacre of Arabs.'" Norman Finkelstein, "Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict."
[quote]Originally posted by Black M5Let me take some phrases from the west "talk is cheap" "put up or shut up."
[quote]Originally posted by Black M51964-1968. I know where you are going and before you tell me its a terrorist organization ....
Obviously you don't know where I'm going, but if the shoe fits...
What date did Israel win control of the "occupied" territories?
[quote]Originally posted by Black M5
1948. It took over something that wasnt theirs (Palestine).
Obviously, truth isn't something you are interesed in. The answer is during the 6 day war, in 1967. Interesting enough, the PLO was formed BEFORE Israel controled the occupied territories. Hmmm...
Why don't you quit spitting out your half truth filled Anti-Isreali, Anti-American propaganda. I've proved you WRONG from the beginning of this thread (POST #2), yet you still spew the same hate filled message filled with lies. You claim you will stop once you are proven wrong, yet this has been proven to be just another lie.
Your interest lies not in facts, truth or peace, but in deceit.
I thought you would be smarter in your reply instead of an ignorant prick accusing all arab countries.
Easy with the name calling, I did not say all Arab countries support terrorists, I said all Arab countries that support terrorism, need to be dealt with in a very serious and aggressive manner, and YES the F*CKING Low life Saudis are among the leading supporters of terrorism. Saudi Arabia is no friend to the USA/Civilized free World.
Rave M5- ok I know i shouldn't of called you a prick but you said that we should kill all the terrorists family and friends, you are taking your anger out on other people who had nothing to do with the acts of 9/11 so I calle dyou ignorant. The saudis and all arab countries support palestine and they do donate money to palestine but that doesnt mean that they support terrorism. If it wasnt for qatar america would have no clue as of bin laden's messages that al-jazira have taken the risk to go meet with binladen and record the interview. As soon as any arab countries get information on bin laden, they send it to the US CIA department ASAP. And you said that saudi has been hated and isnt a friend of the US right? how about the new airforce bases and navy that saudi has build for the US? what about the US when they helped the arabs in the gulf war and saudi payed them back, you dont still think that they are allies? what about the meeting with the president with the saudi plan? like i said, you are putting your anger out on everyone that is even close to being a muslim but that's your opinion and i cant change it by saying stuff over the internet.
also you said i am delusional and that israeli is a friend of the US right? you obviously haven't clicked on any of my links that show you "from american sources" that there were spys in the US sent by israel and also in one of my links it says that the arab countries HAVE warned Bush of an attack by al-qaida and what did bush do? he ignored it. Next time click the links.