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I hate to say it but all major politicians, republican or democrat, capitalist or socialist is in some form or another are a tax cheat. Heck, I'd be willing to say I may "overestimate" a little on tax deductions. Everyone does it, but when a politician does it they come under major fire. It's all a matter of degree. And only about 1/3 of the bailout money went to the banks, it was really a spending plan.
That's because politicians are our leaders, chosen by us to represent us. As such, they are held to a much higher standards and we get bent out of shape when they don't act accordingly. All of these "family values" Republicans getting busted doing not-very-family-valued things and the democrats being corrupt as well. Instead, we bicker about which crap is worse. If your M5's exhaust breaks and you were given the choice of an exhaust made out of coke cans and one made out of mailing tubes, what would you do? Would you argue which one is worse or would you seek something better? Oh, and you're given the choice to have those two crappy choices and told "hey, if you don't like it, change it in 4 years!"
But I digress. Politicians are grown in our communities and perhaps that's the best that we can do.
And only about 1/3 of the bailout money went to the banks, it was really a spending plan.
Huh? You need to include not only the government funds that went straight to the banks, but all of the indirect bailout amounts such as the $180B that went to AIG because of their counterparty liabilities to Goldman, Deutche et al. How about Freddie/Fannie and the bailout of their bond holders, mostly banks? Then you have the $7.7T that the FED printed up and shoved into the banks through their discount window at zero interest. No, the big banks are a core constituency of the political class and received the bulk.
I haven't read much about it but my initial thoughts would lump Solyndra with the bank bailouts. Billions upon billions of that money were given as bonuses and saved banks that helped put us in this mess in the first place. Speaking of which, did you know that the bailouts were more than the combined budget for NASA for the past 50 years? And then people have the nerve to say that we can't afford to explore the solar system... The shunning of science and technology are a bigger factor to the decline of the US in the world than anything else.
I do not doubt that Obama takes advantages of tax loopholes. To be honest, so do a lot of regular people thanks to their accountants. It's just a matter of scale.
Also, were you bringing up Obama defensively? Trying to say that if Obama does all this, then it's ok for everyone else? It isn't ok for anybody. I'm not a fan of using the injustices of others to justify my own.
I wouldnt really put the Solyndra deal the same as the bank bail outs. Not that I was a fan of the bank bail outs either, Im in favor of the private sector to work it self out. The big difference with the Solyndra deal is that the tax payers have zero chance of getting any of that money back. It is also a perfect example of not listening to the experts and doing what is best for your political agenda. At least most of the bank bailout was paid back. I also dont really mind financial company executives getting bonuses. Most of the executives in those companies were not directly responsible for their companies getting into trouble. There needs to be accountability but that is what the board of directors and share holders are for. This is the problem with the government getting involved in the private sector.
As for my Obama comment Im not being defensive at all. I didnt vote for him and wont in the next election. As for taking advantage of tax loopholes I do it myself and dont feel bad about it. Its not just about federal income tax either. I pay a ton of property taxes which is supposed to go to the public school system which is fine but the problem is our public schools are so bad and filled with politics and PC crap (cant celebrate Christmas because I dont want to offend anyone not Christian) that my wife and I pay over 12K/yr for my 8 yr old and 4 yr old to go to private school to get a quality education. Do I get a tax credit for that? Of course not. But yet the politicians in DC want to go after me for more taxes because supposedly Im rich so I can afford to pay more.
All the class warfare crap needs to end as well. I grew up in a very blue collar family and I made sacrifices to go to college and have worked my butt off to earn everything I have. We all have the same chance. If you grow up poor you can work hard to take yourself to the life of your dreams. Thats the awesome thing about living in the US. Unfortunately there are people in this country that believe those of us that have worked hard to achieve levels of income and wealth should be punished for doing so. This is really sad!! We all should be rewarded for hard work and sacrifice!!!
We should all be celebrating the fact we live in one of the greatest countries in the history of the world! Embrace all of your opportunities and make the best of each day. If we all do this the problems out country faces today will be a thing of the past.
I wouldnt really put the Solyndra deal the same as the bank bail outs. Not that I was a fan of the bank bail outs either, Im in favor of the private sector to work it self out. The big difference with the Solyndra deal is that the tax payers have zero chance of getting any of that money back. It is also a perfect example of not listening to the experts and doing what is best for your political agenda. At least most of the bank bailout was paid back. I also dont really mind financial company executives getting bonuses. Most of the executives in those companies were not directly responsible for their companies getting into trouble. There needs to be accountability but that is what the board of directors and share holders are for. This is the problem with the government getting involved in the private sector.
See but this is what I can't understand. The "private sector" isn't just some random entity that works in mysterious ways. The big dogs at the banks made ridiculous bets with bad securities. They packaged those as good ones when they knew they would fail. How are we protected from crap like that? And if you say that tax payers had zero chance of getting Solyndra money back, then what chance did we have of getting our 401Ks back after they tanked thanks to the banks playing with our money? Yes, I'm aware that the government made it easier to give loans to people who shouldn't have them. But that's one factor that doesn't relate to the irresponsible gambling. And guess what? The same guys are now playing the same game in Europe's markets.
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I pay a ton of property taxes which is supposed to go to the public school system which is fine but the problem is our public schools are so bad and filled with politics and PC crap (cant celebrate Christmas because I dont want to offend anyone not Christian)
Think of if not as trying not to offend but trying to include more people. Christmas isn't the only holiday being celebrated this time of the year. While I'll be one of the first to say that PC is stretching the limits quite often, this isn't one of those times.
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Thats the awesome thing about living in the US. Unfortunately there are people in this country that believe those of us that have worked hard to achieve levels of income and wealth should be punished for doing so.
Do you really think that "punished" is the right word? Of course, what is "fair" and what should be is dependent on what we think the tax code should be. Did you also feel punished in the 90s when you had the same tax rates that they're trying to impose now? Did you feel rewarded when Bush introduced the tax cuts? I was too young back then and don't remember the public's reaction to these things.
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We should all be celebrating the fact we live in one of the greatest countries in the history of the world! Embrace all of your opportunities and make the best of each day. If we all do this the problems out country faces today will be a thing of the past.
While all true, this also leads to complacency. Look at how that "buy American, it's the best" worked out. Going back to science, every top civilization has been powered by math and science. Those two aren't being celebrated here like they should. In fact, they're being undermined by the far right. Did you know that we could've had a particle accelerator 3 times more powerful than CERN but we didn't fund it? Did you know that the Russians are now planning a mission to deflect Apophis (asteroid that is very likely to hit Earth in 2036 and wipe out the US west coast and kill millions in Asia)? We should be doing that! But I digress. Scientific illiteracy is a whole other thread.
At any rate, thanks for engaging me on this one with a civil tone and not being a douche. It's refreshing.
See but this is what I can't understand. The "private sector" isn't just some random entity that works in mysterious ways. The big dogs at the banks made ridiculous bets with bad securities. They packaged those as good ones when they knew they would fail. How are we protected from crap like that? And if you say that tax payers had zero chance of getting Solyndra money back, then what chance did we have of getting our 401Ks back after they tanked thanks to the banks playing with our money? Yes, I'm aware that the government made it easier to give loans to people who shouldn't have them. But that's one factor that doesn't relate to the irresponsible gambling. And guess what? The same guys are now playing the same game in Europe's markets.
You're mostly correct. The bailouts were as bad as Solyndra, maybe worse. Solyndra was simply siphoning money to favored political cronies. Yes, it was corrupt, but it does not produce the same moral hazard as did the bailouts, and it was not within several orders of magnitude in size.
Where I differ, a bit, is in the blanket damming of this type of investment/speculation. Investors lose money all of the time, and that is fine. What is not fine is socializing those losses (of the politically connected) through government force. Believe me, we would not have had this wild speculative fever without past bailouts (e.g., 1994 bailout of banks invested in Mexico), implicit guarantees to Fannie/Freddie, and, of course, the FED driving down interest rates that filled the speculative coffers.
Where I differ, a bit, is in the blanket damming of this type of investment/speculation.
Perhaps I came across as blanketing but that isn't the case. I know that there are risks in investment. But the whole selling fraudulent packages is what gets me. Stewart made a bit about it, I'm sure you've seen it. It was about Goldman Sachs.
Perhaps I came across as blanketing but that isn't the case. I know that there are risks in investment. But the whole selling fraudulent packages is what gets me. Stewart made a bit about it, I'm sure you've seen it. It was about Goldman Sachs.
I agree. The point is that few people normally engage in these highly-risky speculative investments - where they can easily lose all of their money - without the moral hazard of government backstop. The seemingly irrational bubble that burst in 2008-9 was not irrational on the part of the players. It was a product of pathological, non-market incentives perpetrated by the political class. That's why it's so sadly laughable that the OWS crowd and their ideological friends think that the solution is more empowerment and intervention by the same government that created it and in cahoots with their cronies.
I agree. The point is that few people normally engage in these highly-risky speculative investments - where they can easily lose all of their money - without the moral hazard of government backstop. The seemingly irrational bubble that burst in 2008-9 was not irrational on the part of the players. It was a product of pathological, non-market incentives perpetrated by the political class. That's why it's so sadly laughable that the OWS crowd and their ideological friends think that the solution is more empowerment and intervention by the same government that created it and in cahoots with their cronies.
Exactly. The OWSers have the who and what right, but they miss completely on the how. It never ceases to amaze me how groups of people who have been repeatedly screwed by the government get upset at the screwing, and then immediately clamor for more government involvement in their lives.
In the end, the root of the problem is too much debt. We've been living on borrowed prosperity for the past 30 years, and like any good exponential function the rate at which we we must borrow to pay for what we currently enjoy is increasing. Eventually, we'll hit the wall and it will probably be faster than anyone thinks. For anyone to blame a particular political party for this mess just shows how ignorant they are of how both sides of the aisle spend that which we do not have. Until we have a serious discussion about what services we as a population want from our governments, and we understand that these services must be paid for with CURRENT revenues, we will not get anywhere in solving our issues. Given what I've seen so far, I don't think we'll ever have this discussion until the market decides enough is enough and its far too late.
Huh? You need to include not only the government funds that went straight to the banks, but all of the indirect bailout amounts such as the $180B that went to AIG because of their counterparty liabilities to Goldman, Deutche et al. How about Freddie/Fannie and the bailout of their bond holders, mostly banks? Then you have the $7.7T that the FED printed up and shoved into the banks through their discount window at zero interest. No, the big banks are a core constituency of the political class and received the bulk.
Follow the money: Bailout tracker - CNNMoney.com
Pay special attention to the "American Recovery and Reinvestment Act", aka government spending, portion of the act.
And let me share a story on that:
They dug up my favorite road and put up a big "Rebuilding America" sign (actaully three in each direction, six total). It was a doozy of a road, not a pothole in sight. They repaved it and it was awful, I saw many cars bottom out along there. They repaved the perfectly good road for a second time and its still not as good as it was. Two years, a lot of traffic jams many broken front splitters and bent rims, and many tax payer dollar$ later, its worse than it was before.
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Every other manufacturer should give up on building their own cars and just make M3s instead.- Car and Driver
After the embarrassing performance of the 5- and 7- series... all future BMW vehicles should be built and developed by the M division-Jorge Gonzalez.
Last edited by M5 Authority; 7th December 2011 at 00:00.
The risky loans where like a hot potato. The first guy sold it to the second guy for a profit and he sold it to a third guy for a profit and it ended up in some big collection of loans that was bought by a bank. The customer gets the loan he wanted (but couldn't afford) and the banks make "bank". Everyone wins as long as you're not the guy standing when the music stops.
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