Whats with all the hate on the E60 from the E39 guys??

[Cantresjr]

I'm a E39 owner and also love the E60. some day will have both. i hate haters . we should all be one big M5 Familly enjoying our different evolutions of the car. if i had the money i would have one of each. E28, E34, E39 and E60.

[spatterso]

Having owned both, back to back, and loving the experience with each, it is always surprising to me that there is such animosity going BOTH WAYS. I applaud BMW for it's courage to step outside of the norm when it designed the e60, and as we can see, nearly every automotive design team has taken a piece of Bangle and incorporated the various designs into their vehicles. The same phenomenon occurred when the e39 was developed. We had so many who forever criticized BMW and the e39 owners for buying what they perceived as a horribly designed car that stepped away from the M heritage with its different design, V8 engine, and increased weight. We saw this again in the transition from e39 to e60. There will always be fans of each M5 iteration. I only hope that we all appreciate the evolutionary/revolutionary changes that happen with each development. I personally enjoy the fact that every M5 is vastly different in character, feel, driveability, and style. One thing remains for sure...

It is still the ultimate driving machine that keeps it's competition awake at night struggling to assimilate, integrate, and imitate.

[M5 Bliss]

Originally Posted by gsfent

Hey, good response. I guess we are just seeing things differently.

So, if I understand you, E39 guys shouldn't diss the E60 and 1st version CTS-V guys shouldn't diss the new CTS-V (don't know Caddy internal designations). But it is ok for a BMW guy to diss tha Caddy.


You seem to think it is ok as long as it is across different manufacturing lines; but within a manufacturer, no dissing should occur. I respect your view, but I simply don't see it that way. No need to hate other cars, which we deem inferior to our "chosen" car, and that shouldn't be restricted to just within a manufacturer. Pointing our inferior points in someone's opinion if fair game, but demeaning a competitior seems a little over the top.

Assuming for the sake of argument that E39 guys are "dissing" the E60, I think the E60 guys are doing the exact same thing with the CTS-V. And that was my only point. As evidence, try looking at the recent threads comparing the E60 and CTS-V, and substitute "E60" for "CTS-V" and substitute "E39" for "E60" and then reread it. Seems some pretty heavy "hating" going on, a lot worse than any comments I have seen on the E39 board discussing the E60.

Again, just IMHO.

Regards,
Jerry

Jerry, this is not what I'm saying at all. I'm sorry for once again trying to clear this up. My attempt to tip toe around this subject to not offend E39 owners (especially since I was one) dilutes my ability to clearly get my point across, I guess. I'll try again, but this time it will be more blunted to try to clarify (not meant to be mean spirited).fficeffice" />

1. You wont find weekly threads where E60 owners bash E39 owners. E60 OWNERS DON'T COMPARE OUR CARS TO E39 OWNERS BECAUSE IT COMPARING BACKWARDS. We know where we stand in this comparison, E60's outperform E39's in every performance category. We DO compare the E60 to the new CTS-V's, E series AMG's, supercharged Jags etc, cars that compete in the performance area. These comparisons have merit and make sense against same generation vehicles whose performance standards compete.

2. There is a weekly E39 thread bashing the E60, it’s an infatuation, and comes across as a need to be validated. These comparison attempts are started by E39 owners 95% of the time. The hate is almost solely from E39 owners trying to claim its better than the E60, ....WHY? The E39 is a great car, its an amazing car, love it for what it is. But don’t claim it’s better than the E60 based on opinions, it doesn’t outperform in any measurable category other than gas mileage. I hated these arguments when I owned my E39 because it sounded so silly it was embarrassing as an E39 owner. I loved my car without claiming it’s better than the E60…it’s not.

3. Hate any car you want. Same brand, different brand. Doesn't matter to me. That wasn’t my point. You stated E39 owners hating E60 owners is no different than E60 owners taking on CTS-V owners. I say its completely different, it doesn’t sound silly comparing same generation cars against each other when those cars can compete in performance. Heck, I compare same brands all the time, but I’d compare the V10 M5 with the new M3 before I compared it to the E39, and that would have more merit than the E39 trying to compare with the E60 from a performance standard. That’s not an insult, just a performance fact. I used the example of how silly it would sound for an older CTS-V owner to claim their car was better than the new CTS-V, sounds just as silly as E39 owners claiming its a better performer than the E60. Nothing more.

It doesn’t take anything away from the E39 to acknowledge the E60 is a vastly better performance car. The E39 still outperforms 95% of every car produced to this day, E60’s just outperform 99%. Both amazing!

Frankly, I’d love to grab another E39 one day to own both, but not at the expense of the newer, better performing E60.

If this doesn’t clear up my point, I stink at this.

I truely hope this does not come across as mean spirited, it was not my intent. I hope your E39 is running well, and you have many more blissful miles ahead of you. Its a really fun car.

Cheers.

[mister2d]

Mr. Bliss you seem to like using the statistic, 95%. Got any proof to back that up or is that just elitist talk. Just wondering. Honestly this thread is the first I'm hearing of any weekly, much less any bashing or the E60 in comparison to the E39.

[ur20v]

M5 Bliss

I like you just don't seem to get the point over??!

I read as usual through a lot of E39 threads last night, some I posted in and the put downs are everywhere, thats a fact. I surf these thread in the E39 section because I love the car, I also love the the E34 having owned one.

Like you said the E60 out preforms in every area except fuel econ but we didn't buy in to M5 for this feature or we all would be running around in 530 diesels which incidently has more torque than both the E60 AND the E39 and close on the performance of the E39!! If the weight advantage AND torque advantage made any difference apart from 'feel' then we would see the E39 walk on the E60 in drag races specially at lower speeds and at tracks... does it... NO. BMW wouldn't have it any other way, the next gen M5 will walk on the E60 and be quicker on the track, it has to be to pull the sales... simple facts.

As you pointed out, how different was the E39 from the E34, E39 guys say the E60 is missing the heritage of previous models, heres a couple of FACTS... the E39 was the first M5 not to be hand built, first to use a V8, styling became more rounded with enclosed headlights etc, and a big jump in weight from 1651kg to 1795kg... ring any bells with the carpping on we see against the E60??

Some on here have put constuctive posts together but there seems to be a underlying tone of 'it doesn't happen' or 'its the E60 guys hating' or just posting more drival about how crap the E60 is!

Feels like I am banging my head against a wall! I add to this thread because I have had the same thoughts as you for a long time and wanted to try and keep things respectful and most of all constructive and helpful.

Regards

Jay

[m5_kid54]

Thats is spot on m5 bliss, especially point 3. I also find it weird that E39 bashing on the E60 is the same as E60s bashing on the new CTS. We're comparing same generations here, the only thing you can compare between generations of high performance vehicles is feel of the car, because 99% of the time the next generation of the same manufacturer car will always outperform the older version. Its like comparing the new gallardo LP560 to the old one, ive heard some people say they prefer the old one and that it sounds better etc, but ultimately the new one blows it out of the water in performance aspects and if you say that its not all about performance then what are we doing driving M5s!?

To another poster above asking if anyone has driven the e39 and e60 back to back, well the answer is yes, and quite a few other e60 owners have aswell, most of them coming from the e39 in fact. I myself had an E39 last year and loved it, my brother down the road still has his e39 m5 and we regularly swap cars just for fun. Ive raced him a few times and as expected the result wasn't pretty for the e39, but what i have noticed is that he doesn't ever compliment my car! He just comes out with stuff like "oh but the e39 still looks/sounds better ", i just laugh it off, but it does remind me of the mentality of the some of the e39 members on this board always trying to find ways to convince themselves the e39 is actually a better car than the e60.

[EM_5]

If BMW is dropping the ball, I don't think it is from the E39 -> E60. The E39, for its time, was the best mid-sized sedan. The E60 M5 had no rivals until recently with the CTS-V and the XFR, just as the F10 will be class and world-leading once again, and the world will play the 5 year catch-up game.

The M3 is where BMW M dropped the ball big time. The E30 was world crushing, the E36 was just crushing, the E46... barely crushing. The E90/92 M3 is falling behind before it was even released. This is true on the street and in racing.... especially when BMW Motorsports had to cheat with the E46 M3 GTR by putting a V8 in their car just to compete.... then get banned for the rest of the season.

Funny about a year ago, the E39 guys (particularly one senior member... I forget his handle) that kept coming over to the E60 board and snickered at every warning light thread and every SMG / I-Drive thread.... quick to let us know how he hated the E60. Then his buddies will come join the bashing. This is when a new member would have a question on a warning light that popped up. This insecure member and his entourage would then turn that innocent thread from the new member and started ripping on the E60 M5, telling the new member how he messed up and should have bought an E39, how he hated BMW and yada yada yada. It was getting really old..... thread after thread.... and I would call him out everytime I see his cynical posts. Where is he now? I wish he would post here..... I am too lazy to look up those past threads.

The E39 M5 was all conquering for its time. The E60 is all conquering during its reign. And now that she's getting long in the tooth, the batton will be handed off to the F10, the new King. I have no doubt that the close competitors of the E60 (now in her golden years) will be once again playing catch-up when the F10 arrives. And according to GM rumors, the V division has been cut from Caddy.... Merc states that they will not be fighting the HP wars with their new E63 and Jag just barely released their XFR. Only logical competitor in the several years during the F10 reign will be Audi and their RS6. We in the US only get to see pics and read about it. It's not coming over here.

[watchme]

How could any M owner hate any M car? An E60 isn't in the cards for me but if it was I'd absolutely have one. I'd put on my Jeremy Clarkson accent every time I drove it too.

That's why I stay in the Off Topic section. Politics are a better debate.

[Gustav]

[Diny]

You gotta be kidding me. Alright, let's begin:

1) I agree that the maturity level is still rather high.
2) I agree that it's hard to hate another M car (although the M trucks make it easier).

Now, the good stuff:

I have nothing but respect for the E60. It's a marvel of engineering. Every time I see one, I think to myself "Hey! An M5! What's up partner?" BMW did an excellent job with it.

And now, the better stuff.

E60 guys who complain about E39 guys need to grow a set and quit crying. Just because someone prefers one thing to the other doesnt mean it's hate. I prefer Monica Belucci to Kelly Brook, but that doesn't mean that I hate Kelly Brook! I know that there are E34 guys who like their M5s to the E39 and rightfully so. They drive differently and so they prefer it. Now, if someone has to explain why someone likes something better than another thing, how can you avoid saying that it's "better" in some aspects?

Looks: Is it so hard to understand that the E60 is a revolutionary design and polarizing as heck? I know that many E60 owners hated it at first but the looks have grown on you. Did you have that problem with the E39? No, the E39 doesnt need to grow. It comes fully grown like the stupid grin on our face every time we drive it. Oh, and the polarization isnt limited to the BMW crowd.

And even if you take away the looks, you end up with 2 cars that drive very differently. And I'm not talking about just speed, I'm talking about how it drives. There is no doubt in my mind that there are E60 guys who enjoy their cars just as much as many E39 guys, and that's fine. But they are different animals and that is hard to debate.

The so-called "hate" that you bring up always shows up in threads by newcomers or from people who drove both cars and still have trouble picking one (yes, shocking fact that some people exist). None of us established guys make an E60 "bashing" thread out of the blue.

On the other hand, E60 guys like to say that the E39 looks dated. What? Dated? The M5? I'll have whatever you're smoking and I'll take a cookie for the road trip. I will not argue that the regular E39 is definitely looking dated, but the bumpers and mirrors on the M5 make a world of difference. I've had many people be surprised when I told them that my car was 9 years old.

Besides, as BMW drivers, we already have the "d-bag" stigma (which is, unfortunately, justified in many cases). Do you feel the need to go up to people and tell them that you're not a d-bag? Of course not!

I'm aware that there are a few E39 guys who snicker every time the E60 has problems, and that's just not cool. Let me tell you that it isn't a fair representation of the E39 crowd, just like whiny E60 guys isnt a fair representation of the E60 one.