Buh Bye BMW? 2008 M5 Order Canceled. [Safety concerns after IIHS test results] - Page 9 - BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums

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Old 20th August 2007, 08:43   #81
KevinM
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Well, I've waited a few days before posting, but I just either need to stop reading the thread or contribute. I have hesitated because I do not own a E60 M5, and do not wish to be seen as trying to irritate our E60 members with any comments. In fact, I think the E60 is a fantastic car in many respects.

I really do not know where my opinion stands in terms of the test results in question, as I have not considered these results in the context of my family's safety. (I will freely admit I did not look up E39 crash results before the purchases of my 528, 530, or M5, although I had a general knowledge that the car was considered safe.) However, that is not the purpose of my post. I like to think that our community is such that one of our members (regardless of their tenure on the board) can post thier thoughts and concerns and be treated with respect, whether one agrees with the post or not. I am not active on other boards because of the lack of courtesy amongst some of the members, but m5board has always been different. If MJ is concerned about the crash test results, that is his prerogative; I will think neither less of him for his concern or less of him if he decides to purchase the E60 M5 despite his concern.

So, in the spirit of answering MJs original question: I'm not sure any new car today possesses the dynamics of the E60 M5. The usual suspects have already been mentioned and certainly any AMG Merc, RS Audi, Maseratti, or the like is unlikely to outright disappoint. Or you can S3 your E39.

Best of luck with your decision, no matter what you decide.
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Old 20th August 2007, 11:13   #82
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This is my first M5, the oke that bought it from me wrecked it very recently.

He walked out of it unscathed except for a few bruises and scratches.



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Old 20th August 2007, 12:40   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ View Post
Gustav,

I move to have WAYWARD removed as a moderator. His behavior is bizarre and unbecoming of this site.

MJ
[IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/022963/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg[/IMG]

Are you being serious? I thought WAYWARD was quite reasonable, courteous and balanced in his responses. Not to mention he was quite open about why he doubted your initial post..

In any case, are people on this board now so delicate that they can't handle some scepticsm on what appears, on the face of it, an extreme reaction to one test? We are all big enough and old enough to deal with a bit of resistance to our views.


Anyway back to the test:
I for one am taking this finding with a huge pinch of salt. I bet the results for most cars would vary of they were redone given the number of variables here. You just have to use your wn common sense sometimes: I for one would much rather be in an accident in an E60 than an E39 albeit they are both very safe cars. BMW would not have taken backward steps in safety design.

Few key points:
  • Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the results, but from the IIHS site but the 1997 5 series also had a Marginal result.
  • Why are people ignoring the excellent NCAP result the E60 got (4-stars) "The 5-Series has a very strong and stable passenger safety cage. It achieved a four-star rating after Euro NCAP allowed frontal, side and pole retests following improvements to the carís steering column, footrest, door trim, door latch, airbags and software. High loads were recorded by the driver dummyís chest instrumentation in the frontal impact. Side impact protection was better, though. An intelligent seat belt reminder operates for the driver and front passenger. Both child occupants were protected, but the carís ability to protect pedestrians was dire."

  • Some interesting comments on the E39 (which also received 4-stars): "BMW modified the 5-series after initial testing, chiefly because its front airbags fired late. Changes included a new airbag crash sensor, load-limiting front belts, and additional weld points in the footwell. Results given here are for upgraded cars which BMW says are on sale now. In the frontal impact, the driver's upper body was well protected, and the car meets side-impact legislation effective from October. The head protection airbag also worked well. Pedestrian protection was poor, however Ė the bonnet and bumper were judged to be particularly 'aggressive'."
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Old 20th August 2007, 13:17   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azura73 View Post
[IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/022963/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg[/IMG]

Are you being serious? I thought WAYWARD was quite reasonable, courteous and balanced in his responses. Not to mention he was quite open about why he doubted your initial post..

In any case, are people on this board now so delicate that they can't handle some scepticsm on what appears, on the face of it, an extreme reaction to one test? We are all big enough and old enough to deal with a bit of resistance to our views.


Anyway back to the test:
I for one am taking this finding with a huge pinch of salt. I bet the results for most cars would vary of they were redone given the number of variables here. You just have to use your wn common sense sometimes: I for one would much rather be in an accident in an E60 than an E39 albeit they are both very safe cars. BMW would not have taken backward steps in safety design.

Few key points:
  • Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the results, but from the IIHS site but the 1997 5 series also had a Marginal result.
  • Why are people ignoring the excellent NCAP result the E60 got (4-stars) "The 5-Series has a very strong and stable passenger safety cage. It achieved a four-star rating after Euro NCAP allowed frontal, side and pole retests following improvements to the car’s steering column, footrest, door trim, door latch, airbags and software. High loads were recorded by the driver dummy’s chest instrumentation in the frontal impact. Side impact protection was better, though. An intelligent seat belt reminder operates for the driver and front passenger. Both child occupants were protected, but the car’s ability to protect pedestrians was dire."

  • Some interesting comments on the E39 (which also received 4-stars): "BMW modified the 5-series after initial testing, chiefly because its front airbags fired late. Changes included a new airbag crash sensor, load-limiting front belts, and additional weld points in the footwell. Results given here are for upgraded cars which BMW says are on sale now. In the frontal impact, the driver's upper body was well protected, and the car meets side-impact legislation effective from October. The head protection airbag also worked well. Pedestrian protection was poor, however – the bonnet and bumper were judged to be particularly 'aggressive'."
Sorry, but by todays standads 4 stars is a really bad result and the 4 stars came after a recrash. The first 5-series NCAP result was 3 stars, which is HORRIBLE! All other major cars manufacturers get five stars easily (even a Toyota Yaris got 5 stars!).

http://www.newswheel.com/newswheel/s...eral-final.htm

Last edited by KIP; 20th August 2007 at 13:18.
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Old 20th August 2007, 14:27   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KIP View Post
Sorry, but by todays standads 4 stars is a really bad result
Really? NCAP's own words: "The 5-Series has a very strong and stable passenger safety cage. It achieved a four-star rating after Euro NCAP allowed frontal" . How did you manage to read "really bad" into that?

In any case, each to their own, I'm not telling anyone to not take these results seriously rather than I personally take things with a pinch of salt and put reviews into context.
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Old 20th August 2007, 18:10   #86
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Exclamation Some facts and data please...

I checked out the IIHS website for data on various cars in the same general class as the BMW 5-series. I also tossed in the Kia Armanti, which seems to have new-found respect.

Here's what I see:

Overall ranking, Frontal Offset , Side Impact, Rear Collision
("G" = Good, "A" = Acceptable, "M" = Marginal, "P" = Poor.)

Accura TL: G, G, M

Audi A6: G, G, G

Mercedes E class: G, A, G

Volvo S80: G, G, G

Kia Amanti: G, G, M

BMW 5 series G, M, P*
*"A" w/ comfort seats


Point tally of each safety category examined (subcategories within each crash type)
("G" = 3 pts, "A" = 2 pts, "M" = 1 pts, "P" = 0 pts.)

Accura TL: 12, 25, 4

Audi A6: 11, 27, 6

Mercedes E class: 12, 23, 6

Volvo S80: 12, 26, 6

Kia Amanti: 11, 25, 4

BMW 5 series: 11, 20, 1*
*3w/ comfort seats


Grand Results (ranked in order from best to worst)
(Adding up the points across all saftey indicators examined)

Audi A6: 44 pts
Volvo S80: 44 pts
Mercedes E class: 41 pts
Accura TL: 41 pts
Kia Amanti: 40 pts
BMW 5 series 32 pts*
*34 pts w/ comfort seats


Any way you slice it, we are coming up at the bottom of our peer group, even below the Kia Amanti. Not just lower, significantly lower.

Don't take my word for it, check it out for yourself:
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/default.aspx


Of course we could all feel better buying into the notion that there is an anti-BMW conspiracy, or dimissing as meaningless the IIHS data.


I hope these 'feel-better' views hold up when some idiot drunk driver T-bones one of us in an intersection.


I have no axe to grind. I totally respect each and every members choice of car. One hopes that each of us can respect the concerns of individual board members who may be disenchanted with BMW for taking their eye off the ball on safety.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chunpng View Post
The E60 Forum has many cult-like members who think anyone who does not appreciate/own an SMG-equipped E60 is mentally retarded in all things auto, and will not hesitate to 'educate' the uninitiated with tough-love messages.
I chuckled at this characterization.. unfortunately, it seems on target. When I read post after post from a moderator who seems for some reason intent upon challenging a senior board member who has expressed concerns over safety and disillusionment with BMW, it is pretty sad.

BMW does have a problem on their hands.

And with some of the attitudes conveyed in this thread, so do we.

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Last edited by wilsodh; 20th August 2007 at 19:21.
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Old 20th August 2007, 18:49   #87
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I AGREE WITH MJ. MY DAUGHTER IS VERY PRECIOUS TO ME, ONLY 9 MONTHS OLD AND ALREADY I CANNOT BE WITHOUT HER FOR TOO LONG. ANY CONCERNED PARENT WOULD SECOND GUESS THE PURCHASE. NO ONE CAN SAY "SIDE HITS ARE NOT AS COMMON AS..." OR " ITS JUST A TEST". AT HE END OF THE DAY, NO ONE KNOW WHO IS ON THE ROAD. I PERSONALLY HAVE A SOFT SPOT FOR THE E60, HOWEVER BMW WILL HAVE TO CORRECT THIS ISSUE. CARS (AFTER BEING TOTALED) CAN STILL BE SOLD AT AUCTION, PARTED OUT, REBUILT, PASS INSPECTION AND BE PUT BACK ON THE ROAD. BUT A LIFE......A HELPLESS CHILDS LIFE......THINK ABOUT IT GUYS, YOU HAVE A FAMILY MAN (NOT EVEN THINKING OF HIMSELF FIRST) WHO IS CONCERNED WITH THE SAFETY OF HIS KIDS. THAT SAYS ALOT. YOU MAY NOT LIKE HIS POINT IF VIEW, BUT I RESPECT HIM. YOUR CONCERN IS LEGIT.

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Old 20th August 2007, 19:16   #88
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I AGREE WITH MJ. MY DAUGHTER IS VERY PRECIOUS TO ME, ONLY 9 MONTHS OLD AND ALREADY I CANNOT BE WITHOUT HER FOR TOO LONG. ANY CONCERNED PARENT WOULD SECOND GUESS THE PURCHASE. NO ONE CAN SAY "SIDE HITS ARE NOT AS COMMON AS..." OR " ITS JUST A TEST". AT HE END OF THE DAY, NO ONE KNOW WHO IS ON THE ROAD. I PERSONALLY HAVE A SOFT SPOT FOR THE E60, HOWEVER BMW WILL HAVE TO CORRECT THIS ISSUE. CARS (AFTER BEING TOTALED) CAN STILL BE SOLD AT AUCTION, PARTED OUT, REBUILT, PASS INSPECTION AND BE PUT BACK ON THE ROAD. BUT A LIFE......A HELPLESS CHILDS LIFE......THINK ABOUT IT GUYS, YOU HAVE A FAMILY MAN (NOT EVEN THINKING OF HIMSELF FIRST) WHO IS CONCERNED WITH THE SAFETY OF HIS KIDS. THAT SAYS ALOT. YOU MAY NOT LIKE HIS POINT IF VIEW, BUT I RESPECT HIM. YOUR CONCERN IS LEGIT.
Excellent points! And yes respecting others and their concerns is key! Hopefully folks will try and understand that instead of just having such blind love for an automobile. Stop castigating a member who has what deems to be a legitimite gripe about this quality safety issue which has been posted.

Would it keep me from buying an M5,Hell no(even though I like the Z4M best)! But I'd have to have an additional car for crash worthiness.

However, how can folks kill the man for having an issue with this?

I don't think this will curtail enthusiasts from purchasing regardless but the facts are there.

If you are a family man this should be a main concern. Down the road I believe BMW will take care of this problem even though I am sort of surprised to read this.

The old 5 series(E39) as we know was definitely built like a tank and a very solid safe car to own. I've always felt they were the best built BMW made.
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Old 20th August 2007, 19:27   #89
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I think BMW is slipping a bit in many ways. First it was I-Drive, then Bangle got his fingers in the design pie. BMW used to be more exclusive in it's design, performance and quality. Now, like Mercedes and many others, BMW is trying to build a car for EVERY market segment and price range. I think we have some drift here perhaps in what management views as BMW's target market and what's important in the buying decision for this demographic. Of course performace is on top, but safety of all things should be a close second if not of equal significance as well. BMW needs to refocus on what made them what they are, one of the worlds' premiere auto manufacturers before it's too late. Unfortunately you as an individual or as a company can't be "everything to everybody". TOO many errors and far too much dilution evolve from trying to satisfy everyone.
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Old 20th August 2007, 19:34   #90
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Quote:
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.

If you are a family man this should be a main concern. Down the road I believe BMW will take care of this problem even though I am sort of surprised to read this.
I THINK I SPEAK FOR ALL THE FAMILY MEN WHEN I SAY.. I TOO BELIEVE BMW ADDRESS THIS ISSUE, BECAUSE SOMETIMES AS DEVOTED FAMILY MEN WE NEED THESES BMWs TO PLAY WITH, WAX ON OFF, MODIFY, BASICALLY TO KEEP US IN THE SPORT!!! SO WHEN THE IMPACT RESULTS COME BACK NOT AS EXPECTED, OF COURSE WE WILL QUESTION IT...IMHO I DO HAVE FAITH IN BMW AND MY EXPECTATION OF THEM CORRECTING THIS MISHAP IS VERY HIGH. ITS VERY RARE THAT BMW WILL MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE TWICE.
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