Press Release no 2: The new V10 engine in the BMW M5: A masterpiece in engine cons...

[bernhtp]

Originally Posted by Apples

Looking at the graph readout l'm not seeing near the normal usuable torque/ power curve like on the current M5.
It's well down on torque in everyday driving conditions of 2,000rpm - 4,000rpm
The V10 will only be stronger then the V8 past 6,000rpm.
My monies on the E39 being quicker at rpms below 6,000rpm...massive torque advantage over the V10.

Where the power comes is not important; when it comes is. Traditionally you get instant power by having high torque along the full engine speed speed range. BMW appears to be consciously changing this game by offering instant power another way by investing heavily in transmission technology and mating it with this fantastic engine. Regardless of your speed or engine speed, you have [near] instant access to the full power of this engine with the press of your right foot.

As most of us know you spend very little time at RPM's past 7,000, so BMW is pushing peak power not what the E39 M5 was good at...torque down low.

The E60 will spend much less time at high RPMs than the E39 because its remarkable power and transmission will quickly propel you to the speed you desire, whereupon it can then relax while the E39 is still huffing and puffing trying to catch up.

Another question is what do BMW do now that they've caught up to the 55 motors?
How do you find another 25+ hp from a 5 liter NA V10 thats at pretty hp limits as it is.

Keep on being M. Giving us better handling, performance, luxury and technology. They appear to be raising this bar significantly in the E60 M5.

How can crappy CA 91 octane fuel (+ other states max octane rating) be getting anything near 500hp with a 12.0:1 compression ratio.
91 would crap it's pants at 12.0:1
A compression ratio like that is for 93-100+ octane...93 being the mimimum number here for strong power.

It sounds like the sensor/computer technology in this engine will allow it to get more out of the fuel - even bad fuel - than currently possible. With that said, I'm glad I live in Texas. California is a beautiful place but the wacky electorate there has certainly created a political mess that permeates so many aspects of their lives, both business and personal.

Tom

[rvacha]

Originally Posted by Hollis

I think one of the first things you could do for some added power would be to increase those valve-sizes; 35mm? That just seems a little small to me for a serious engine like this one.

Given that the cylinder displacement is 500cc, I don't think 35mm is inadequate. BMW probably worked overtime to get the mass of the valves down so they don't float away!

[rvacha]

Originally Posted by bernhtp

Where the power comes is not important; when it comes is. Traditionally you get instant power by having high torque along the full engine speed speed range. BMW appears to be consciously changing this game by offering instant power another way by investing heavily in transmission technology and mating it with this fantastic engine. Regardless of your speed or engine speed, you have [near] instant access to the full power of this engine with the press of your right foot.

The E60 will spend much less time at high RPMs than the E39 because its remarkable power and transmission will quickly propel you to the speed you desire, whereupon it can then relax while the E39 is still huffing and puffing trying to catch up.Tom

Good points. This is why I'm not so sure we are ever going to see a manual box in this beast. An SMG will be faster, smarter and perhaps even more fuel efficient than a manual - perhaps even more efficient than the E39

[Chris Foote]

Its a beautiful engine, both from a engineering and design standpoint. But, the car is still a Bangle design

[rsteele]

Originally Posted by bernhtp

The E60 will spend much less time at high RPMs than the E39 because its remarkable power and transmission will quickly propel you to the speed you desire, whereupon it can then relax while the E39 is still huffing and puffing trying to catch up.

Tom,

I am not sure that I follow you on this one. In anticipation that the new M5 engine would be much as it has now officially been described, I have been examining my day-to-day driving pattern. Most of the time I dwell in the 2000-4500 rpm range. In this rpm range the E60 engine appears to have less torque than the E39 engine. Assuming that the E39 and E60 M5's weigh about the same, for the E60 to achieve comparable acceleration to the E39 in the lower end of the power band, it would have to be geared so that the engine makes higher rpm at a given speed. I'm not saying that's necessarily bad from an overall performance point of view, but I suspect that the E60 M5 may seem somewhat less relaxed to some drivers than the E39 M5 during day-to-day driving.

If it were possible from 5 liters, The ideal engine would have the characteristics of the E39 M5 engine from 2000-4500 rpm and the characteristics of the E60 M5 engine above 4500 rpm. The ideal sport sedan in the M5 class would be a real screamer when wanted, but it would also be subtle, yet very strong when wanted. I think that it's fair to talk about trade offs. Given a five-liter, normally aspirated engine, I support the trade-off made by BMW, particularly with SMG attached.

I think that the E39 M5 really gets to show its best traits at highway speeds, where my car acquires most of its "quality" mileage. I am willing to give up the low rpm roll-on torque of my E39 for a down-shift or two in the E60, but I would hope that the E60 doesn't cruise down the freeway in 7th gear at 500 rpm or more than the E39 at a given speed. I wouldn't want to feel like the E60 M5 needs an 8th gear.

Richard

[Enigma]

Originally Posted by rsteele

I am not sure that I follow you on this one. In anticipation that the new M5 engine would be much as it has now officially been described, I have been examining my day-to-day driving pattern. Most of the time I dwell in the 2000-4500 rpm range. In this rpm range the E60 engine appears to have less torque than the E39 engine.

Within most of that range the diffrence is not that large. While you operate within that rev range how often do you use more than 80% of the available power within that range? The new engine has >80% of the old ones torque through most of that range.

I drive a E46 M3 which has a curve very similar to the E60 just at a much lower level. What I find is the power is more than adequate around town where I spend most of my time in the 2200-4000 range. When its really go time I click the - twice and I am off

[Apples]

My GUESS here is that the E60 will gearing more like what our aftermarket tuners are offering.
A shorter diff like a 3:45 with the extra gear would give it one hell of an advantage over the E39, and absolutely run rings around any competition.
Do we know tire sizes?
I think it will probably have 10-20mm of extra rubber on front and rear and stay 40 series up front and 35 in the rear, but on 19s.
2nd gear will top out around 65-75mph, top speed around 200mph in 7th @ 7,500rpm
60mph in 7th would be at around 2,500rpm.
The M5 will have to stay pretty short of the 1st gear...much like what we have now.
The extra 1,000+rpms will help for in gear top speeds.

I came up with these guestimates from looking at what the current M5 has and what traits the new E60 MIGHT have.
My Gallardo has a very similar engine to the E60, and it's peak is at 4,500rpm and only slightly less then the E60..(8 lbft).
The Gallardo has a 60+mph 1st gear.....no chance of that in the M5, too heavy.
Even with the much lower peak torque level in the Gallardo no real surge comes at all below 3,500rpm, from then on it has a real pick up in torque to 4,500rpm and then stays pretty solid till 6,000 and then the HP hammers to 8,000rpm
From then on the Gallardo will top out at 192mph at red line in 6th.
I think BMW will give the E60 top out qualities in 7th...l hope so.
Gallardo know that wlth a pretty light car and plenty of power and a pretty good torque peal they could shoot for a great 0-60mph time with no 2nd gear change this give you a saving of 2-3 tenths.
Bigger tire height will be an issue over the E39 mix a shorter diff and 7 gears, this car will be in the power zone with ease.
You will be changing gears quicker in this car then any other out there.
Maybe l should order one....dam you bangle, an engines nice but l'm not Ray Charles

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by digger

Heres a graphical comparison between e39 and e60 for torque.It is in the ***.doc attachment.

Can you please post the Excel file you used to create this pic? I would like to create HP curves and overlap them. Thanks.

[digger]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

Can you please post the Excel file you used to create this pic? I would like to create HP curves and overlap them. Thanks.

No problem.
See attached file in .zip format since excel file was rejected.
The e39 figures are taken from the Dinan website

http://dinancars.com/Series.asp?Seri...is=13&Model=57

and the e60 figures were taken from the pic from this thread by eye so there is a little bit of error involved.

[bernhtp]

Originally Posted by rsteele

I am not sure that I follow you on this one. In anticipation that the new M5 engine would be much as it has now officially been described, I have been examining my day-to-day driving pattern. Most of the time I dwell in the 2000-4500 rpm range. In this rpm range the E60 engine appears to have less torque than the E39 engine. Assuming that the E39 and E60 M5's weigh about the same, for the E60 to achieve comparable acceleration to the E39 in the lower end of the power band, it would have to be geared so that the engine makes higher rpm at a given speed.

My point is that that the SMG of the E60, as described, makes the current engine speed largely irrelevant because it can/will [nearly] instantly change the gear so that the engine speed is optimal for the desired amount of acceleration.

I infer from the description of SMG improvement such as faster shifts, smoother shifts, better computer control, hill rollback stop, etc., that the D-modes (automatic shift modes) will be very usable for everyday driving. I would imagine that, at least in the aggressive/sport D modes, that it will respond aggressively and immediately to the press of the throttle by changing to the appropriate gear. This combination makes far more power available virtually instantly than anything available now.

Tom