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Next M5 with AWD?

8K views 31 replies 13 participants last post by  w8pmc 
#1 ·
#3 ·
The M5 is the only real performance sedan out there with RWD. I would hate to loose this option. I have been in a turbo panamera for 5 years and am finally going to get back on the M wagon. I am tired of the AWD and want a more raw car again. I rented an M5 F10 and cant stop thinking about how I want one. I loved the transmission, suspension and the RWD.
 
#4 ·
For me, AWD would ruin the whole feel and experience of the car. I love the fact that the front wheels just steer, and communicate so much better than AWD cars do. I love the fact that it gets a bit tail-happy when I want it to, and I love the fact that, while the electronics play a big part it's my restraint a that keeps us going in a vaguely straight line.

I can understand AWD if you're somewhere that the weather regularly demands it, but otherwise just take a look at the difference in driving experience between an RS6 and an M5 to see where I'm coming from...

SB
 
#5 ·
I've had 3 M5s and I obviously love them. They provide unmatched fun in optimal conditions but optimal conditions doesn't describe where many of us live. For me, I'm sick and tired (living in WA) of being beaten off the lights by a kid in his Audi A4 2.0T. The the power our cars are making today requires a different approach--the physics just don't work as-is. Surely, that's why Mercedes and Audi and Porsche, etc. are all 4WD already. BMW's volume is dwindling and even I'm tempted to buy something that's more usable more of the time.

I don't see this as an "if" anymore--it's more a matter of "when".

The comments that I read regarding the future of the M5 from BMW execs are loosely similar to mine above regarding power-output and physics--they didn't say "we're slapping Xdrive on an M5", rather, they said the power exceeds the car's ability to do something with it (I'm paraphrasing) and 4WD is one option. They also referenced the joy-factor that many take from the RWD characteristics so my hope is they'll find a way of reasonably achieving both.
 
#8 ·
I recall a few years ago, my friend had the ability to modulate how much power would go to the rear wheels in his 09 wrx sti. He could split it near 50/50 or had the ability to shift most power to the rear wheels. I think a setup like this would be ideal for the F10.
 
#24 · (Edited)
LOL, try keeping up! It'll take you till Easter to catch up :)

Seriously though they're totally different cars, one primarily for driving to the grocery store with or towing a trailer and the other only for putting a smile on your face, possibly with others and track day-capable. I'd never trade the last of the real ///M breed with some of the best chassis dynamics ever put into a sedan for something that I could simply buy an S4 wagon to do better anyways. The X5 literally is a truck after all.. Totally different cars that shouldn't really be compared imho.
 
#11 ·
I'm sorry & perhaps it's my age, but BMW will be making a huuuuuge mistake if they go AWD with the M's.

Put simply, an AWD Uber Wagon exists & that's the Audi RS range, in the same way a RWD Uber Wagon exists in the M & AMG range (albeit the Yanks get AWD in the E63).

Having had many several RS's & a couple of M's, i like the difference being as it is. Yes the C7 RS6 will launch slightly better in less than perfect conditions, which to be honest is a lot of the time in the UK, however once rolling the F10 soon catches up & dynamically the M5 is a lot more fun on the road & track. As the book says, it's the better 'Drivers Car'. Plus the RS6 is Estate only & i've no need to transport dead bodies around just yet. I totally get the advantages & disadvantages, but i also like the fact the 2 brands bring very different offerings as otherwise the only real difference between Audi RS & BMW M would be the badge on the front.
 
#12 · (Edited)
I'm sorry & perhaps it's my age, but BMW will be making a huuuuuge mistake if they go AWD with the M's.
We're roughly the same age--I'd love to have the option... to me it's about making the power usable and I tend to pull away from a standing start quite frequently which is where our car's struggle (the Audi S4 already thinks he's won when he gets to 60mph--I'd actually have to stop and explain to him that I was gaining, no really, I was).



Put simply, an AWD Uber Wagon exists & that's the Audi RS range, in the same way a RWD Uber Wagon exists in the M & AMG range (albeit the Yanks get AWD in the E63).
I'd buy the RS6 Avant if I could--they don't sell it here... idiots.



What I've read in articles so far from BMW and automotive rags indicates this:
1. it'll be optional (just like Xdrive is optional on other models)
2. it'll be rear-biased (or 100% rear-wheel drive) until they're slipping
... what's wrong with that (that's rhetorical although I suspect me saying so won't stop it being answered :wink).
 
#13 ·
Having spent a while with an RS6, I have to be a bit contrary here.

It was fast. Really seriously fast. Especially off the line. And it sounded fantastic. Oh, and I could fill the back with potatoes and the car would mash them for me when I nailed it off the lights.

But in truth it was crap to drive. It was lifeless and uninvolving, and if things looked anywhere near getting interesting it nannied itself back into tedium.

I've had my share of AWD cars, ranging from Integrales and even a Delta S4 through an original Quattro to various Japanese things. They ranged from being thrilling to being like something from a Playstation. But without exception they were all more fun to drive than the RS6. And though there's a wide selection of interesting looking AWD cars available here, and although the technical benefits are undeniable, I'll be sticking with 2 wheels driven and the other 2 wheels steering. Unless I need a Land Rover of course...

SB
 
#14 ·
:smile Understood!


I think I'm gonna postpone judgment until I've driven it. I really enjoyed the "whenever I damn well like" usability of my 550xi--my M5s are more fun obviously but I attribute that more to the power difference than the lack of driven front wheels. Perhaps I'll end up in your camp but an M5 that's truly usable almost without compromise across 4 seasons sounds like a blast to me--the definition of compromise, I guess, being the point we're actually discussing.
 
#18 ·
A 2 ton saloon car is not the thing to buy if getting off the line faster than the next guy is your aim. BMW M means RWD to me. I know that AWD is better for some things but it totally changes the character of the car.

BMW's largest market is the U.S. and that means 0-60 times are a big deal. I think whilst the manufacturers are in a performance pissing competition AWD is sadly inevitable.
 
#20 · (Edited)
A 2 ton saloon car is not the thing to buy if getting off the line faster than the next guy is your aim.
720hp & ~700 ft lbs or torque --> 2 tons shmoo tons :smile
I can nail an S4 easily--for that matter, I can nail an RS7, too--the weight is not the issue here: traction is. I choose an M5 because I wanted something else! Weird to say, I know, but I didn't want 4-doors and back seats and a practical boot--I wanted a 2-door rocket ship but I have a family and the M5 gets me close to a no-compromise solution.


BMW M means RWD to me. I know that AWD is better for some things but it totally changes the character of the car.
Yup, understood--you're certainly not alone in that!!

BMW's largest market is the U.S. and that means 0-60 times are a big deal.
Agreed on the US-market comment but what is the correlation between that and 0-60 times?
 
#19 ·
I'm in favor of an AWD M5. It's not just the launch advantages but the (insert sacrilege here): ease and security of driving in all weather conditions such as Michigan winters.

Even with their heavy curb weight, performance cars can't put the power down when HP > 550hp.
 
#21 ·
Because of the U.S. culture of drag racing. I don't think that in Europe there is as much importance placed on straight line acceleration, driving dynamics seem to be of more relavence here.

I'm not saying that an M5 is not capable of drag racing, it's just that the weight is a disadvantage, you can't deny the physics of having to shift such a heavy car. Of course you can always add more power but so can someone with a lighter car. It's much more difficult to loose the weight.
 
#25 · (Edited)
I'll give you guys my opinion and that's all it is- one guy's opinion:

AWD on the M5 would be a positive development.

I've been a purist on this for a long time.

BUT!!

These cars have gotten larger and heavier and vastly more powerful. And as I understand it, BMW sees itself not just as drivers cars but as the company who is the "advocate for the driver". I think in years past that was more simple: make cars where the basic physics = friendly handling. Lighter, 50/50 weight distribution, feelsome steering, mostly neutral to understeer handling. Well, times have changed, and BMW has to change with the times.

From a drying dynamics perspective, again my opinion: AWD BMWs still drive better than AWD Audis and Mercedes (though I think Mercedes is making a really nice try to catch up). AWD can be tuned to let you feel like its RWD and it is a big help with deploying all that power and torque- which is required by these heavy vehicles to stay competitive. Also Porsche doesn't seem to have a problem of including AWD on their vehicles.

Curb weights will not be coming down very much, most of the weight savings gets gobbled up by new technology so the next car might actually be a little lighter, but we're not going back to the old days with light small M cars. Lets talk about that. Things were more simple back then and the formula was a bit more simple as was the competition. Technology and competition march on though. Today's 5 series is the size of past years 7. Would we have argued for an M7 back then? No- it was too big. But technology and the need to stay current has morphed the 5 into ever larger sizes. This is why there's room for the 1 & 2 series. The press is full of stories of how the M235 is a nice reminder of how M cars used to be- because its smaller and more straightforward. I think AWD would be out of place there. But on a big heavy car like the 5,6,7 series? I think the time has come. AWD doesn't add too much in terms of % of weight and today's BMWs don't have the same level of road feel as prior generations. AWD really wouldn't make much difference there.
Also, routing the power between 4 contact patches vs 2 can also be a safety enhancement.

As noted above, the competition is always improving as well and the differences between these cars is getting smaller. Not offering AWD is giving an easy victory to the competition. In some parts of the world, no AWD = no sale. Maserati has made sure to include AWD with their new vehicles (albeit with the smaller engine which I think is a mistake but there must be some cost reason going on). The new E63 AMG can be had with 4Matic even in the super powerful S guise. And Audi has always had AWD as their main selling point. How about taking the fight to them on their home turf. A BMW M oriented AWD system. Its no longer enough for BMW to just get the basics right (light weight, 50/50 weight distribution etc).

BMW is a very very forward looking company. That's something I think we all appreciate about BMW. As fans of the marque I think we should give them some latitude to explore bringing AWD to the M lineup- maybe not every car- but they should give it their best effort.

My final thought is I've been driving BMW's for over 22 years. I remember when they were selling even less than 1/10th of the volume they sell today. Their lineup isn't as focused as it used to be and that's OK. The key for them is to continue to be the "advocate for the driver". However, I can say while I've had BMWs I've loved more than others, they were all excellent driving machines and I think they will not change that. Sometimes they might tack a little too far to the luxury side or too far to the sporty side for our personal tastes, but they've never really let me down so far and I wouldn't fear their offering AWD on certain M cars (as noted its already offered on the SAVs). I would hope they make it an option, so those who want the pure RWD dynamics could have it.
 
#28 ·
Great post. I agree with yellow though, Car Forums are not the place for sensible posts:wink

Of course i'm just kidding & i agree with everything you say.

The only point i don't agree with is Quattro vs. BMW X Drive. Having owned several AWD Audi's (RS's), they in my mind are the masters of AWD in performance cars & as you say have tuned many to be RWD biased under certain conditions.

Perhaps it's just me then & i'd not describe myself as a purist, but if BMW go AWD with the M products, i'd move back to Audi as the 'Ultimate Driving Machine" that BMW M offer would be gone. I'm sure it would be a great product, but i'd be confident the Audi RS would be more involving as they mastered AWD decades ago but BMW are newcomers to that game in performance cars.
 
#26 · (Edited)
Jerry, that's a very thoughtful and reasonable post.

Please go back to the rules for internet forum behaviour and re-read them as you have clearly misunderstood how to disagree with people ;)

I see your point, and though I agree with them in principle, for me an M car should be RWD. Having said that, if they bring out a 4WD M5 then I'm sure when my local dealer invites me for a test drive then I'll go along with all my preconceptions and perhaps manage to leave a couple of them by the wayside. Perhaps not, though...

SB
 
#27 ·
HAHA very funny.

Yes its been a while for me maybe I need a forum refresher? ;)

I used to be of the following mindset for BMW M cars... they MUST

* Be Naturally Aspirated
* Individual throttle butterflies
* RWD
* Stick shift
* Chassis faster than the motor
* 50/50 weight distribution or better (a little less over the front is ideal)

Thats a really nice list of attributes. I think we've all learned over time that we don't exist on paper and sometimes flexibility is in order. I think anytime you get too rigid, eventually, it will become a problem.

So lets go down the list

* Naturally Aspirated... well, I'd still prefer this- but the new generation turbo motors offer excellent throttle response. The sound isn't quite to my taste but thats just a personal thing. NA is basically over. It just has to be. TC is so much more efficient. We're trying to make these cars a little bit more environmentally friendly. A laudable objective. The last time we tried this, we lost sports cars for a generation. The result this time? Power has INCREASED! :) I can tell you the throttle response in my 2013 M6 convertible in sport + is right on par with my 2000 Z8 in sport mode. One is NA one is turbo. I'd be hard pressed to tell the M6 motor is turbo charged if I could only go by throttle response (forget sound etc).

* Individual throttle butterflies.... I think they still do this. Bottom line is no one besides the die hards would care if they did this or not. I think its an important link to their past but one of their early big sellers, the US E36 M3, didn't have individual throttle butterflies. One of my friends likes to say the US M3 is really more of a 328is+. Maybe, but I loved that car. I some times fantasize about getting a nice example and then dropping in the Euro Evo motor. :)

* RWD... see above but lets face it, today you can get the M SAVs- that makes me cringe a bit- but thats the market place. They need to compete with Porsche and Mercedes and the rest.

* Stick shift... big controversy on this one. It looks like the "backwards Americans" won a victory for those who really love to row their own gears- unless Im wrong, stick shift is now an option on most M cars.

* Chassis faster than the motor... this is one in recent years seems to have taken a bit of a backseat and my own commentary is this is the one that's made me less of an M Enthusiast. I think the reason the press goes crazy over the M235i or the 1M is because those cars have chassises (is that correct spelling?) that are faster than their motors. What this means to me is the handling is very quick and natural and the car doesn't feel like just a nicer appointed go faster version. We used to criticize AMG cars for that- now they have some really fun handling cars. I think BMW can get back to that, I think they are masters of chassis dynamics so they know how to do it. It seems the M5 competition package is a step in the right direction. I can tell you my M6 convertible- lovely car- but the handling out of the box was what I'd call sleepy. It just was happy to go straight and really felt kind of asleep. I brought it to my mechanic who did an alignment and guess what- the car is transformed- it feels like its now up on its toes- the best return on $200 ever.

* 50/50 weight distribution or better (a little less over the front is ideal)... they've stuck to this so yea!

I have a feeling the more credible competition from Mercedes, Audi, Toyota and Nissan to name some will help M up their game. The new M3/4 look like they are moving in the right direction too.
 
#29 ·
Excellent point regarding Audi Quattro vs xDrive. My comment isn't really meant to be just comparing Quattro to xDrive, rather the whole car. Quattro might be the superior AWD system, I really don't know on that point. Its just that every Audi I've ever driven (aside from the R8 which was just fantastic) has gotten less stable with speed, specifically gotten more floaty and busy; whereas, BMWs settle down and become more stable with speed to a point (usually up to about 120 or so which we never really see in the US).

We now return to M rules and everyone else drools! ;)
 
#30 ·
I've a c6 rs6 and have been considering the move to an f10 m5.

For only a couple of grand I can get 740bhp to all four wheels, etc etc. but a the Nurburgring it's dull and does handle well enough.

So I'm thinking of an f10 as a great all rounder! I like the rwd so that it makes the front feel better!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#32 ·
For a couple of grand (over the cost of the car) you can get 740+bhp to all two wheels & that's a lot more fun.
 
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