Each iteration of M cars is indeed faster than predecessor. But it is not enough to focus solely on the predecessor. The current game has changed. And while the M5 has moved forwards, has it moved forwards enough to keep up ?
In other words, can the F10 pace the F458 and LP560 / LP570 ? Initial data Pbox data (esp 100 to 200 kph of 8.6s, which BTW, is consistent with EVO's timing of 8.7s -- EVO Magazine October 2011 - F10M Test) makes this looks unlikely given much faster times by F458 and LP560 / LP570. But as others have put it, lets be patient and wait for the airfield runs
So to take the E60 vs GTR comparison out (which is irrelevant), shall amend the statement as follows -- Looks like the cars that the E60 can beat, so can the F10 obviously. But cars that the E60 cannot beat, the F10 also cannot beat (exc. for GTR)
So now we know the GTR time quoted @ fastlaps are somewhat suspect.. plain video you see modded E60M struggling to beat GTR well into triple digits..i can't imagine bone stock E60M does any better as others have stated, a stock E60M may catch GTR delimited but @ unreasonable speeds. (probably further than 150).. ok.. exclude GTR
Ill give you the Gallardo.. we have seen video here of E60M passing Gallardo decent speeds.. One other thing.. also in Gustav video, modded E60M also did not pass F430.. i'm guessing fastlaps also indicated stock E60M faster than F430.. you see where we are going with this.. all the data in the world will not matter if you are on the track and the results are not what you expect.. or what magazine says.. I love E60 but it kept pace with F430 not pass like i expect F10M to do with 458.. we will know for sure after airfield races..
Competition is much better with cars like Pana TS, CTS-V and AMG cars than they were several years ago.. M has not lost it's way, the competition is just much better now.. so to one of your points, you are correct..
As I read these threads I can't believe the expectations...Do you guys really think that an F10 M5 with 560hp, and weighs 2ton+ should be able to keep up with a 458 Italia that has the same HP but weighs 500kg less?? Does that sound realistic to you?
Yes I know we're talking about rolling starts, but what makes you think the F10 M5 will even sniff the Fezza, Turbo or ZR-1? Gotta get real...
Let's be honest, I love my e60 M5 and BMW in general, but some of those airfield runs don't exactly add up. And, expectations are WAY too high around here...I'd be impressed if the F10 could keep up with a stock 2011 Z06 Vette. That would be something.
Actually the 26.6s for the GTR (pre 2012) came from Car and Drive Aug 08 -- 100-150mph comparison ; (0-150) minus (0-100) time. Thread also shows data for how few cars can beat the E60 from 100 to 150 mph
Each iteration of M cars is indeed faster than predecessor. But it is not enough to focus solely on the predecessor. The current game has changed. And while the M5 has moved forwards, has it moved forwards enough to keep up ?
In other words, can the F10 pace the F458 and LP560 / LP570 ? Initial data Pbox data (esp 100 to 200 kph of 8.6s, which BTW, is consistent with EVO's timing of 8.7s -- EVO Magazine October 2011 - F10M Test) makes this looks unlikely given much faster times by F458 and LP560 / LP570. But as others have put it, lets be patient and wait for the airfield runs
So to take the E60 vs GTR comparison out (which is irrelevant), shall amend the statement as follows -- Looks like the cars that the E60 can beat, so can the F10 obviously. But cars that the E60 cannot beat, the F10 also cannot beat (exc. for GTR)
What I'm getting involved in now is tantamount to armchair racing, but, the least you could have done was was to quote a believable figure for the pre-2012 GTR to 150 mph.
So, yes, it's still faster than the E60 M5 to 150 mph and beyond . What's the obsession with racing from a roll anyway? It's like altering the parameters to suit the strengths of the M5. Doesn't anyone race from a standing start anymore? So if you run into a faster car at a stop light, what's the best approach? Do you admonish him not to use launch control and ask him to speed up to exactly 100 mph or the narrow window where you feel you may have an advantage before you have a go? That's just ridiculous IMHO.
I'm not one for pontificating or believing in what ifs, so I'm going to do my level best to record an honest 50-250 kph between a stock E60 M5 and my GT-R this weekend or the next. I'll try it from a standing start as well. Let the chips fall where they may.
On a side note, I replaced my E60 with a e92 M3, and even though I miss the M5 (especially the brutal gear changes in S6 mode), I basically lost 60% of the purchase price on the trade in, and, the car felt like a very fast.... boat. I got sea sick in the twisties. The M3, while significantly slower (from a roll) and just as fast in the 1/4 mile is much more nimble and more suited to me (could just be denial of an impending mid-life crisis).
I appreciate all cars for what they are, and to be honest, the F10 just doesn't inspire me. That being said, there is no doubt that it is an astonishing vehicle which is bound to be the leader in its class, but a 458 beater it will never be IMHO.
Notice what the 458 does to a Turbo S in this clip:
What I'm getting involved in now is tantamount to armchair racing, but, the least you could have done was was to quote a believable figure for the pre-2012 GTR to 150 mph.
So, yes, it's still faster than the E60 M5 to 150 mph and beyond . What's the obsession with racing from a roll anyway? It's like altering the parameters to suit the strengths of the M5. Doesn't anyone race from a standing start anymore? So if you run into a faster car at a stop light, what's the best approach? Do you admonish him not to use launch control and ask him to speed up to exactly 100 mph or the narrow window where you feel you may have an advantage before you have a go? That's just ridiculous IMHO.
I'm not one for pontificating or believing in what ifs, so I'm going to do my level best to record an honest 50-250 kph between a stock E60 M5 and my GT-R this weekend or the next. I'll try it from a standing start as well. Let the chips fall where they may.
On a side note, I replaced my E60 with a e92 M3, and even though I miss the M5 (especially the brutal gear changes in S6 mode), I basically lost 60% of the purchase price on the trade in, and, the car felt like a very fast.... boat. I got sea sick in the twisties. The M3, while significantly slower (from a roll) and just as fast in the 1/4 mile is much more nimble and more suited to me (could just be denial of an impending mid-life crisis).
I appreciate all cars for what they are, and to be honest, the F10 just doesn't inspire me. That being said, there is no doubt that it is an astonishing vehicle which is bound to be the leader in its class, but a 458 beater it will never be IMHO.
Notice what the 458 does to a Turbo S in this clip:
Looks like there are sufficient data points to 150 mph to say pre 2012 GTR and E60 M5 can swing either ways -- you showed some, I showed others. But like I said, E60 vs GTR is not the main point, so to avoid doubt, have amended my summary in my post above --- "Looks like the cars that the E60 can beat, so can the F10 obviously. But cars that the E60 cannot beat, the F10 also cannot beat (exc. for GTR)"
Lol .... most situations specifically trackdays (flying laps) and highways will be from a roll .... In particular, trackdays where the timed laps starts as you cross the start / finish line at speed after your outlap, and timing starts automatically by PBox / Vbox / transponder.
Additionally, in track days, you are not racing other cars per se, you are going against the clock and trying to improve lap after lap. Diving into a corner vs. another car or cutting off another car when turning is not only bad form, its downright dangerous. So the best place to overtake traffic is on the straights / sweepers (hence from a roll as well)
So yes, at least for me, rolling starts are much more important
And finally, I agree with you on the F10 vs 458. Data is pointing this way.
... Competition is much better with cars like Pana TS, CTS-V and AMG cars than they were several years ago.. M has not lost it's way, the competition is just much better now.. so to one of your points, you are correct..
Agree Perhaps the ///M version of the 4 door M6 can do it ? Just like ///M kept it promise that the M5 sedan will not be slower vs M trucks. The 4 door M6 Gran Coupe should be faster vs. its 4 door sedan cousin ?
Agree Perhaps the ///M version of the 4 door M6 can do it ? Just like ///M kept it promise that the M5 sedan will not be slower vs M trucks. The 4 door M6 Gran Coupe should be faster vs. its 4 door sedan cousin ?
I hope you are right. But it may be only fractionally quicker (because of a hopefully lower weight) in the same way that the E63 M6 was maybe a bit quicker than an E60 M5 in the real world. But any difference in drivers seems have made more difference. And BMW quoted the same figures for both as I recall.
So, I at least hope the F14 is lighter than the F10, even if it does not show up in official performance specs.
Actually, Pbox / Vbox data is very reliable -- very useful and objective for comparing acceleration / lines for tracking and improving laptimes across multiple drivers / conditions etc. But, yes, definitely want to see the Airfield races as well
As for cars that the F10 can beat but the E60 cannot from rolling, looks like the same result, e.g. either the E60 can beat it as well from a roll, or not at all
2) GTR (not 2012) -- BMW M5 vs Nissan GT-R - FastestLaps.com - 0 to 150 mph for E60 M5 at 21s, GTR at 26.6s. And most of the difference from a roll given the 0 to 60 mph advantage of the GTR
You will see from the link all the Car & Driver test results for the Pre-'12 GT-R. This also includes the wildly horrible 26.6s 0-150mph time. I can only imagine that some bad gas made its way into the GT-R and it pulled significant timing and boost. The other tests that ran 0-150mph times are 19.6s and 20.1s.
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Perhaps the ///M version of the 4 door M6 can do it ? Just like ///M kept it promise that the M5 sedan will not be slower vs M trucks. The 4 door M6 Gran Coupe should be faster vs. its 4 door sedan cousin ?
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