BMW M5 E60 V10 compared with the M5 F10 V8 TwinTurbo from latest reviews - BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums
F10 M5 Discussion 2010- Discussion about the next upcoming generation M5 based on the next generation 5-series, the F10.

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post #1 of 7 Old 22nd September 2011, 03:20 PM Thread Starter
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BMW M5 E60 V10 compared with the M5 F10 V8 TwinTurbo from latest reviews

TopGear: BMW M5 driven full road test car review - BBC Top Gear - BBC Top Gear

"We don't like: lacks the fire and brimstone delivery of the last-gen M5"

"The last generation M5 was a rabid V10 thing, all fury and attitude and nothing like any other 5-Series. The new one has more in common with the only other V8 M5, the E39 that launched in 1998 - it's a gentler, more approachable car and far easier to live with every day. Maybe that's not a bad thing - it probably opens the car up to a wider audience."

BMWblog: 2012 BMW M5 Test Drive

"BMW’s previous M5, the E60 M5 was an impressive car in every way. It’s engine was phenomenally good – revving to a stratospheric 8,250 rpm. The V10 blazed its way to maximum power output of 507 hp. But a key difference is found between the maniac V10 and the bludgeoner turbo V8: drivability. You see, the V10 managed 384 hp at 6,100 rpm, and it wasn’t until you hit 4000 + rpm that you began to feel a power surge. But the new M5′s V8 is different. It develops 100% – read it: one-hundred-percent of its torque at 1,500 rpm. This is axe-murderer appeal, the kind of brute twist that is borderline violent. There’s more… the torque output remains at 100% all the way until 5,750 rpm where it begins to drop off towards redline – but still not falling far below 400 lb ft at redline! What a machine. In fact, this engine produces 405 lb ft of torque a hair above its 1000 rpm idle."

Pistonheads: Driven: BMW M5

Well, having been treated to the best part of a year behind the last M5's extraordinarily addictive V10 (albeit under the bonnet of the PH M6), my initial response to the news that it was being supplanted by an artificially aspirated V8 was disappointment. While the 'big picture' remains unequivocally stupendous, the new engine has indeed brought a distinct change of character which some might feel is not all for the good.
Wringing the nuts off the old 8,250rpm-limited V10 was a rewarding pastime, but it's less so with the new V8. Peak power arrives at 6,000rpm and is maintained at a plateau until just before the limiter comes in at 7,200rpm - which is impressive, but leaves you with a distinct feeling that not shifting before 6k was a bit of an oversight. There's a nice V8 engine note, but just a little too muffled for my tastes, which is probably the fault of those turbos again.

WhatCar: BMW M5 review - Car and Car-Buying News - What Car?

Whereas the old M5 was credited with an average fuel consumption figure of 19.1mpg (and in reality you were lucky to see 15mpg) BMW is confident that the new car will average 28.5mpg when driven conservatively.

Ultimately, though, perhaps what undermines the new M5 is the fact that it's almost too refined and too comfortable.

Where the old V10 felt savage and only vaguely related to the rest of the 5 Series range, there's no doubt where this latest car's lineage lies.

AutoExpress: BMW M5 | First Drive | Auto Express

The logic behind replacing the old 507bhp 5.0-litre V10 with a 552bhp twin-turbo 4.4-litre V8 is sound. It produces 10 per cent more power, 30 per cent more torque and is 30 per cent more efficient than the old unit – and it gives the car a whole new Jekyll and Hyde personality.

Whereas the old M5 was a brutal machine whether you were rolling through town or flat-out on a race track, the newcomer can play both roles to a tee.

The benefit of 680Nm of torque, all available below 2,500rpm, is that the engine hugely flexible. Crusing along in sixth gear at 1,000rpm, if you squeeze the throttle there's still huge reserves of acceleration. At low speeds it feels more like a diesel than a performance V8.

The seven-speed dual-clutch gearbox, throttle, dampers, ESP and steering all get three individual settings each - comfort, sport and sport+. Start to dial in more aggressive settings and the car reveals its other side. While the engine is smooth and quiet at low revs, keep your right foot planted and it charges hard to the redline - just like non-turbocharged M5s of old.

In case you were wondering, yes it's fast, seriously fast - exaggerated by the fact that it's such a large car. You don't get the same raucous exhaust note as you did from the V10 model, but there's still a fantastic bassy V8 rumble, accompanied by a burble when you back off the throttle. Listen closely and you can hear the twin turbos, located between the two banks of cylinders, spooling up.

AutoWeek: 2012 BMW M5, an Autoweek Flash Drive Car Review - Autoweek

"The new M5 is bigger than ever before, putting on 55 millimeters in length and 46 millimeters in width over its direct predecessor. Some 19,331 examples were produced between 2004 and 2010. However, height has dropped by 13 millimeters. It also rides on a wheelbase that has grown by 74 millimeters and runs front and rear tracks that are up by 27 millimeters over the standard 5-series up front and down by 38 millimeters at the rear--the latter part of a complete chassis upgrade that sees the latest M car adopt a vastly different geometry to its more conservative four-door sibling.

Central to the technical advances is a decision to supplant the naturally aspirated 5.0-liter V10 engine of the previous M5 with a twin-turbocharged 4.4-liter V8 running the latest in piezo-guided direct injection. The 90-degree unit, which is mounted 20 millimeters lower in the engine bay than standard 5-series powerplants, is a development of the similarly configured engine used in the X6M, complete with its cross-bank induction system. However, there are sufficient differences between the two engines to lead BMW M officials to describe the M5's engine as being new."

It certainly feels faster. Its superb traction, heroic acceleration, rifle action gear change and ability to sustain high speeds on roads that would have worried the old M5 puts it on a higher performance plane than its predecessor. How does 50 to 75 mph in 3.7 seconds grab you?

Bury the throttle at anything beyond 1,500 rpm--the point where peak torque is developed--and it surges forward with immense force, seemingly in any gear. Given the heady output, the tractability at low revs is quite staggering. It's a vastly different driving experience from the old M5, which required a good 4, 000 rpm before its engine would begin to deliver anywhere near the same vigor.

The shove is colossal, but it is also oddly constant. Among the many delights of the naturally aspirated engine used in the old M5 was the way its intensity grew in line with the number of revs it was asked to carry. The new turbocharged engine is clearly more user-friendly but has nowhere near the same character. And despite running a relatively high 10.1:1 compression ratio and the latest evolution of BMW's Valvetronic system, it doesn't possess the same rabid throttle response.

Automobile Magazine: 2012 BMW M5 First Drive - Automobile Magazine

"The steering is probably the best of any M5 yet (overall, the E60 M5 left us cold, and as much as we loved the E39, that M5's steering used a recirculating ball setup. It was good, but the F10 M5's rack and pinion system is more communicative."

"There's a bit of lost isolation in the rear of the M5 compared to the regular 5-series: the subframes are rigidly attached to the body, which means you hear the differential working, and the ride is a bit more gritty. Bad thing? Not to me. This is an M5, if you want super refinement you can buy a 550i. And the whole point of an M5 is skirting along the compromise of packing sports car moves into a luxury sedan body.
And in that sense, this M5 is a far better M5 than the last one (which was always a bit too high-strung and sterile for its own good.) It's got almost all of the refinement of the current 5-series, all of the tech features, gorgeous styling, and elegant interior. And then it's got razor-sharp handling and the best steering we've seen in a 5-series in a long time, if not ever. And then it'll rip that smile off your face with outrageous acceleration. And if you're in Germany, and you buy the driver's pack, you'll be able to test out the raised 190-mph limiter. 190! In a sedan."

Edmunds: 2012 BMW M5 First Drive

"Yeah sure, that's all very nice, but there's only one reason for buying a car like the 2012 BMW M5 and that's for driving absurdly fast. And 30 percent efficiency improvement or not, the M5 delivers.

As ever, the M5's greatest asset is that it hides all this lunacy and performance under the inauspicious clothes of a midsize sedan.

Compared to the previous M5, power rises from an even 500 horses to 560 horsepower at 6,000 rpm. The maximum torque rating rises to 501 pound-feet, a big jump from the V10's 384 lb-ft. What's more, in the boosted V8, all 501 lb-ft are on tap from 1,500 to 5,750 rpm compared to the V10's late 6,100 torque peak. BMW claims the extra power drops the M5's 0-62-mph time from 4.7 seconds to just 4.4 seconds.

But even that doesn't describe how much faster the new car feels on the road. That huge spread of torque means the effective rev range is much broader than the old car's. The V10's midrange pull was never as weak as detractors made out, but a big overtaking maneuver always meant dropping a couple of gears. Not any longer.

So, a win-win situation then? Almost. All that power means fewer trips to the redline because, well, you don't really need to bother. It's less work, but there's less reward. More importantly, the V8 doesn't sound anywhere near as special as the old V10."

"We suspect few will mourn the loss of the old M5's clunky SMG transmission. In its place is BMW's new M DCT seven-speed dual-clutch gearbox. You still shift it with those same tactile rubber-backed steering wheel paddles — or by tipping the console stick back and forth if you prefer. But the M DCT is light-years ahead of the old SMG manual, which felt slow and clunky back in 2004, and was feeling positively prehistoric by the time production ended last year.

The new dual-clutch setup is smooth, quick, and makes the engine feel much more responsive than it does in the X5 M and X6 M, both of which make do with a traditional torque-converter-equipped automatic gearbox. But if you enjoyed the slightly scary sensation of the old M5 banging through the gears flat out, you might be surprised to find this one changes without much drama.

The biggest gains are probably in Auto mode, as the DCT does a much better job of slipping unobtrusively between ratios when you're not in the mood to thrash the daylights out of the V8. And instead of the old SMG's bewildering 11 different shift modes, the new one has just six: three for Auto mode and three for Manual.

"Compared to the old V10 M5 and the current standard 5 Series, this one has a grittier feel to its steering. It gives you a far clearer sense of what's going on down at the front wheels and feels much more precise just off center as you first tip the M5 into a bend. You need that precision, too, because at just 2.6 turns lock-to-lock, the new rack is quick (if not as swift as a normal 5 with active steering) and points the nose into corners with much more enthusiasm. And that's despite a 253-pound increase in curb weight to 4,123 pounds."

"If some of the M5's wilder character traits have disappeared in the metamorphosis from E60 to F10, then so have the rough edges. The brakes feel stronger, the performance is more usable and, if the engine is slightly less exciting, the improved chassis and much longer touring range makes up for it. It's all about efficiency these days, remember?

It's a shame the V10 had to go. We're unlikely to see an engine like that again. But the new 2012 BMW M5 is more than just a great engine, it's a better overall sport sedan."
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post #2 of 7 Old 22nd September 2011, 05:40 PM
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The V10 will certainly go down as one of the all time greats and for balls-to-the-wall driving unable to be matched by the new one. The revs and response remain supercar-worthy. But, combined with the DCT transmission, this new engine should still be able to provide massive pace and thrills while making a far better daily driver (which, whether you like it or not, is a key part of being an M5). And the new brakes and chassis sounds great. I'm on board.

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post #3 of 7 Old 22nd September 2011, 06:07 PM
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...if the engine is slightly less exciting, the improved chassis and much longer touring range makes up for it. It's all about efficiency these days, remember?

I will ofcourse reserve final judgement until I actually get behind the wheel, but everything points to the fact that you could take the M off the trunk and replace it with AMG and no one will know the difference. Im not sure why anyone would want to have a car that is so brute so low in the range without any special sensation as you climb up the RPMs, in a country where local speeds are in the 30-40mph range, having so much thrust immediately leads to alot of frustrations most of the time. The greatness of the S85 is that you can actually hit the gas, and for a mere second or two, the power increases exponentially, and you have the immensive feeling as the exhaust begins to scream. All I hear and read is about this power plateau, and I read that to mean something very un-M like. So this is the future that each will have to decide to take or leave, but I wonder after the novelty if we'll all agree to leave it rather than take it, the M5 is not supposed to be about less exciting engines or efficiency, but that is what it is being marketed as, and therefore built to. Im in the "probably not going for it" camp unfortunately as I dont really care for refinement in this manner.

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post #4 of 7 Old 25th September 2011, 01:04 AM
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Sounds like the F10 M5 might be a better overall package for an everyday ride. Planning on switching next year or 2013. But I also agree hat for a weekend fun car the old V10 might be better. That's why I plan on keeping my M6 Cab indefinately. Hoping to get the best of both worlds I guess.
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post #5 of 7 Old 25th September 2011, 04:03 PM
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I thoroughly enjoyed the broad power curve of the E39 M5. Even though the V10 was a very special motor, it's power was only there at high RPMs. Plus given the clunkiness of the SMG, I owned the E60 550i instead. With the F10, I can go back to the M5 and enjoy it as a daily driver, not just when driving it balls to the walls.

PS: I currently have the X5 50i. It is more fun to drive than the F10 550i (steering feel, engine sound, etc). It also has a 4.4 TT V8 that has surprising power for a heavy SUV at any RPM. I can't imagine the additional punch of the M5 version.

Assuming the engine sound is just piping the engine sound into the cabin, and not trying to produce artificial sounds, I am all aboard and want the F10 M5, no questions...

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post #6 of 7 Old 28th September 2011, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Richard in NC View Post
I thoroughly enjoyed the broad power curve of the E39 M5. Even though the V10 was a very special motor, it's power was only there at high RPMs. Plus given the clunkiness of the SMG, I owned the E60 550i instead. With the F10, I can go back to the M5 and enjoy it as a daily driver, not just when driving it balls to the walls.

I also liked power curve of the E39 but i was always wanting more when going through the revs sort of like a peak.. I have that with E60 for sure.. I think on paper F10M looks like it should be easier to drive with all the tq available very low rpms.. BUT.. i don't know. The F10 has way more torque than E39 and i got in many situations with E39 having so much torque dumped early.. E60 saved me from myself since i had to wait little bit to get full power..

I predict F10M with traction control off will be an axe murderer.. with TC off and with all that tq very early, i don't see how you go straight at all.. In fact in some of the reviews, there is wheelspin in 4th gear.. once you hook up though, the car should be a rocket..

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post #7 of 7 Old 28th September 2011, 03:05 PM
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I think the F10 will do a better job of being the car that you can drive and have fun in everyday. If you're looking for a 'weekend fun car', buy a Porsche.

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