The END! BMW F10 will get twinturbo :(:( - The Unofficial BMW M5 Messageboard (m5board.com)

Sebring NL · 26th July 2008, 05:31

Gentlemen drivers,

Even respected mags like EVO and CAR are pretty confident that the new F10 M5 will get the twinturbo V8.

Very sad, as E34 owner I always hoped BMW would return on their E39 path. They did in a major way in 2005, when the amazing E60 came, which was all the car the E39 M5 never was.

Although the E39's are nice, they have never been more than 550's. Reason why many of the members of the E39 section are bashing E34's and E60's is because of just that. They are mostly nice guys, but not as adept to the M philosofy as , say, an E30 , E28 or E34 owner. The E46 is an all-time high but sadly driven by idiots in many cases. I was sooo happy when the E60 showed that BMW Motorsport could still do it, the car is so RAW, so different from the normal E60 and so dynamically fantastic, it still puts the RS6 and AMG cars to serious shame although having less HP. An epic car.

So, now that BMW has clearly turned away from the kind of cars I like, I wonder which brand to turn to.

The new line of Turbo engines - doesn't do it for me
The new 7-series - too many 5-serie related parts, looks cheaply made
The new M-cars- Turbo? Can't be right. Look at 135i and 335i. Step backwards from N/A powerhouses

People were jabbing about iDrive, Bangle butts, SMG, fuel mileage etc etc way before the E60 M5 came and raised that voice to an irritating level when the cars arrived. Perhaps people will understand now that the E60 belongs in the line of the E34 and E28, whereas the F10 will clearly become the successor of the E39 and E36. No, I don't need to drive one to tell.

So, enjoy the E34. Cars will never be that way anymore. Let's hope the oncoming screw-ups of BMW in the M-division will elevate the E34 and its value.

raymondw · 26th July 2008, 09:13

I have read that in AMS too, but also that the final decision has yet to be made. Downsizing is the overall trend, and IMHO rightly so as we are already stripping enough of our natural resources. I for one am glad BMW sees so and that the new 740i will receive a twin turbo I6 instead of a V8. We see a revival of the early eighties when BMW decided against using production ready V12 (M66) for the E23 model range in favor of the M102 I6 turbocharged engine. And what was wrong with the S54 I6 ? They would not have develloped the V8 succesor fur just Europe. Especially with the current NA market moving towards fuel efficient cars, this is an opportunity that BMW cannot afforfd to miss.

Especially Audi and Porsche will have to follow. Cars like the Q7 and Cayenne are like dinousours compared to teh X5 and the Mercedes ML. Too large, too heavy and not any more responsible. This also applies to the new RS6.

rick · 27th July 2008, 13:38

Sebring,

I think you are pretty much spot on with your description, however I would say that you are a tad unfair with the E39 M5 as I think it is a very accomplished car (considering it was never originally going to be put into production) but I agree with your point about some owners not being adept of the M philosophy. I can remember a couple of years ago an E46 owner asked me why I glued an M5 sticker to the back of my 5 series (dickhead).

There seems to be a frantic horsepower battle at the moment between BMW, Audi and Mercedes, take the latest RS6 as an example, now 572PS. What next an E600 with 599PS? Where do BMW go then, to match these extravagent power hikes there are two routes, increase the cubes (not a viable option these days) or turbocharging. The alternative to this is go your own way, not worry about keeping with the oppostion (PS) and still produce a winning car.
In my humble opinion an M Car is not about having the most horses, it is the complete package, the Ultimate Driving Machine. Look at how well the E30 M3 still compares with the current crop, because BMW got it right from the beginning. Despite having approx half the horsepower of a modern M3, C63 etc it still proivides the more thrilling ride. Now it would have no chance of outdragging a modern M3 (or even a 330i), it would also be slower around a track but the way it drives 20 years on puts a smile on anyones face. How many times have you read car magazines comparing the latest offering to the original M3, and how high the E30 scores, because it is still regarded as the benchmark, much in the same way the original Golf GTi is when comparing to modern hot hatches.

Does it really matter if M Cars go down the turbocharging route? I am really not sure. People will say it is not a proper M, just like they did when the E39 was not handbuilt. What will really matter is if it live up to the original M tradition and drive better than the competition.

Sebring NL · 27th July 2008, 14:48

The horsepower war is one that only provides losers.

The cars are surpassing the drivers skill by huge margin at the moment. I spoke about this with some instructors on the Nürburgring aswell, who had reached basically the same conclusion. It affected the way the Ring was driven in a major way according to them.

The problem is that 600-700-800 hp is easily reachable, but impossible to control when marketing a car on the normal market. It can only be made useable by taking the control away from the drivers.

The driver simply can't evolve as far as the car. People spend years and years practising racing and time courses,only to find themselves not driving their 5 year old performance car on the limit as soon as they lend it out to a pro driver who knocks 5 secs off their laptime first time out.

All I am saying is that I look for different ways to enjoy a car, and bragging down the pup about HP isn't one of them.

Another thing is that the image of a car is sadly created by the people that NEVER drive it. All too many time I sit sighing at birthdays when people driving Polo's are talking about 'Callaway Sledgehammer Corvette with 900hp will eat a Veyron blabla RS6 will eat an M5 since it has more horsepower its just physics blabkablabak'

Its not physics. Its not even HP/tonne anymore . I have seen cars with less HP beat much newer ,more powerful cars in a straight line. Think an E92 M3 V8 with 420 hp will take a 2004 E46 M3 CSL in sprint? Think again. It loses.

Its very short-minded to think that the car with the most power to weight will be the fastest. SportAuto tests have shown otherwise on multiple tracks. The M3 CSL beats a Ferrari Scuderia on the Ring. Which car has more HP? Which car is built like a racecar with mid-engine? Which car costs 220.000 euros? Which car is a 10 year old taxi shell with some mods?

My point exactly.

rick · 27th July 2008, 16:22

I am agreement with you on this, thats why I made the point about the original M3. It should be noted that carmakers have increased power dramatically to compensate for the extra weight (due to safety features) in modern cars. It took VW 20-25 years to recreate the GTi (in Mk V guise) purely because they got bigger and heavier over the years, and they had to more than double the HP to get the same effects. Look at the sizes of cars nowadays, a new Polo is significantly bigger than a Mk 1 Golf and an E92 is larger than an E28. That is comparing cars from a lower class outgrowing their big brothers. It always seems that when a newer model is released it is inevitably larger than the last one so needs a load more power to get it to perform in a similar manner. Though a 2 tonne car with 300 PS may not perform as well as a 1 tonne car with 150 PS.

I have had this discussion before about power/weight figures and what is on paper may not always equate to real world performance. Even on this board someone told me that his B10 BT was quicker than my bike (153BHP and 202Kg = approx 757BHP per tonne) not possible but I am not going to argue I have nothing to prove.

I do understand your frustrations with the possibility that the next M5 may be turbocharged because it seems that BMW may have taken the easy option here and are just modifying an existing engine (X6) and upping the power about 100hp. Personally I would love to see the new M5 slightly smaller than the E60 with a straight 6 pushing out 450-500 PS but only weighing approx the same as an E34 (1650kg) and looking even more discreet than the E28, a real sleeper, a Q car, what they originally were.

xraym5 · 27th July 2008, 18:21

I have mixed feelings about this. If this is true, IMHO I am fortunate to have had the last and greatest NA motor BMW has built. I don't like the next generation going down in displacement, and I am not happy that they are using a motor from the X6 rather than one unique to the M5. If, however, they can keep the high rev characteristics of the new M3 V8 and the TT significantly helps the low end torque and generates better than 550 horsepower, it might be worth considering. Time will tell...

I would have been much happier with a TT or supercharged version of the current V10 engine for the F10 M5, but I was only dreaming.

Sebring NL · 27th July 2008, 18:34

Rick

we are 1000% on the same page. I agree completely.

@ Xray

I wouldn't mind down low torque at all, but the sacrifice turbocharging makes is something I don't want to adapt to.

The sound will never be as great as it can be and the throttle response will NEVER reach S54/S85/S38/S14 level. Which renders it useless for me. I'd buy a 550 if I wouldn't mind , since that is 90% of the speed of the E60 against 50% of the cost nowadays and better mileage/tank size/comfort.

Tiauguinho · 27th July 2008, 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sebring NL

Another thing is that the image of a car is sadly created by the people that NEVER drive it. All too many time I sit sighing at birthdays when people driving Polo's are talking about 'Callaway Sledgehammer Corvette with 900hp will eat a Veyron blabla RS6 will eat an M5 since it has more horsepower its just physics blabkablabak'

Ahahah I remember that one!

I love my NA S62, for its outstanding ability to be a sleeper, a fabulous cruiser, economical even since I'm doing almost 640km per tank and a wolf when it needs to be. I understand that maybe its the smoothest of all M5s and lacks on that raw edge that the E34 that you have has, but still, the personality and the design of the E39 makes it all for me.

I understand where you coming from with the power issue and its true. I've been gaining confidence slowly with the M5, been turning off the DSC and trying to feel the car, finding its sweet spot for balance in regard to my speed/confidence ratio, even though I drive it slow, the car is still a beast. The power it has is immense and its going to take me a long time to even scratch the surface of what the car can really do on the hands of someone able.

I never driven a E60 M5, but surely do hope to do so, but I just cannot relate passionately to the design of the car. It just doesn't have that je ne sais quois that the E28, E34 and the E39 have.

I just hope that BMW retains the knowledge that an M car needs to feel special. I'm sick of the brand dillution that the M Package (S Line nonsense for Audi too) creates.

An M car, for me, is a piece of technological and mechanical art. An engineers expertise and dedication on creating out the best of a balance between power, agility, elegance and poise. A car capable of delivering the best to its driver.

Sebring NL · 28th July 2008, 01:48

The most important thing for me is that the driver needs to be part of the package.

If I was to be passed by an E30 or E28 on a track, I know the person behind the wheel is quick enough to earn my respect.

If an R8 or Nissan GTR would come by, I'd be passed by the car, but not necessairily by the driver.

I think BMW is gathering amongst the brands that make cars for the owners, and not for the people down at the pub or (even worse!) the journalists. The owners love iDrive, and believe me, I speak to a LOT of iDrive owners.
The owners all LOVE their M-cars, and as far as I can tell they are all drivers with above average skills.
Some people having an AMG couldn't even tell me if it was supercharged or not

not to mention the Audi owners, who's wives had prohibited them from getting a BMW or they simply looked in the back of TGMagazine for the highest HP output.

BMW Aktiengesellschaft, PLEASE CONTINUE MAKING CARS FOR THE DRIVERS!!!

Wout

zaki · 28th July 2008, 03:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sebring NL

The horsepower war is one that only provides losers.

The cars are surpassing the drivers skill by huge margin at the moment. I spoke about this with some instructors on the Nürburgring aswell, who had reached basically the same conclusion. It affected the way the Ring was driven in a major way according to them.

The problem is that 600-700-800 hp is easily reachable, but impossible to control when marketing a car on the normal market. It can only be made useable by taking the control away from the drivers.

The driver simply can't evolve as far as the car. People spend years and years practising racing and time courses,only to find themselves not driving their 5 year old performance car on the limit as soon as they lend it out to a pro driver who knocks 5 secs off their laptime first time out.

All I am saying is that I look for different ways to enjoy a car, and bragging down the pup about HP isn't one of them.

Another thing is that the image of a car is sadly created by the people that NEVER drive it. All too many time I sit sighing at birthdays when people driving Polo's are talking about 'Callaway Sledgehammer Corvette with 900hp will eat a Veyron blabla RS6 will eat an M5 since it has more horsepower its just physics blabkablabak'

Its not physics. Its not even HP/tonne anymore . I have seen cars with less HP beat much newer ,more powerful cars in a straight line. Think an E92 M3 V8 with 420 hp will take a 2004 E46 M3 CSL in sprint? Think again. It loses.

Its very short-minded to think that the car with the most power to weight will be the fastest. SportAuto tests have shown otherwise on multiple tracks. The M3 CSL beats a Ferrari Scuderia on the Ring. Which car has more HP? Which car is built like a racecar with mid-engine? Which car costs 220.000 euros? Which car is a 10 year old taxi shell with some mods?

My point exactly.

Bravo Sebring,very well said. It's been some time since I've read someones post and couldn't agree more with him.
Thank You.