F10 M5 / F12 M6 - Drivetrain Analysis - KER - BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums

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F10 M5 Discussion 2010- Discussion about the next upcoming generation M5 based on the next generation 5-series, the F10.


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Old 28th April 2008, 20:36   #1
T Bone
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F10 M5 / F12 M6 - Drivetrain Analysis - KER

So we have had a lot of idle speculation on the F10 / F12 M cars. With the input of members like Sunshine-t and good foundational information about BMW corporate, I think that I can put forward a reasonable theory about the next generation of M cars. This thread is for discussion purposes.....

Assumptions
  • Given the emissions and fuel economy rules, BMW will not be pursuing an outright power strategy. We shouldn't expect beasts like the Audi RS6 that try to compensate for weight by adding power. We should expect the same power output from the engines or a slight power bump (i.e. 5-10%)
  • One of the areas that BMW M will focus on will be weight. Weight the universal evil....it affects acceleration, handling, economy etc.... I would expect the F10 / F12 to weigh less than today's E60 / E63
  • BMW M and Formula 1 will be tied at the hips for the foreseeable future. For BMW to capitalize their investment in F1, the M cars will use as much of the technology of the F1 cars as possible. It appears F1 will NOT likely adopt turbo charging but will adopt Kinetic Energy Recovery systems as early as 2009. These KER technologies would be phased in from 2009 to 2013
T-Bone's prediction of the F10 M5 and F12 M6:


Weight:
  • M5 - 3800 pounds / M6 - 3500 pounds
Power:
  • 550 hp from a normally aspirated V10 (call it Mark II) with more "Efficient Dynamics" technologies from engines like the N54 and N64 (minus the turbos).... direct injection, electric water pumps and new ones like cylinder shut down
Transmission:
  • I think the big areas of innovation for BMW M will be materials (to control weight) and the transmission. If you read the article below....F1 will be introducing KER technologies that will seek to recover kinetic and perhaps heat energy from braking. This hybrid type of system is much different than the hybrids we see today that convert kinetic energy to electricity and then store it in a heavy battery only to convert back to kinetic energy later.
  • The KER systems have to be much more efficient. They would need to be in the 80-90% efficiency range. While F1 is quite open as to how it will allow manufacturers to implement these technologies, it would make sense for BMW to integrate KER technologies into the transmission / flywheel. There are KER technologies that can be implemented at the wheels....but this would increase overall weight and more importantly, unsprung weight.
  • So I predict a MDCT type of transmissions with KER technologies that will add kinetic energy into the system during acceleration to bump effective power from 550 hp to over 600 hp. Also I would expect KER technologies to allow cylinder shutdown to be more effective to vastly improve fuel economy in city environments.
  • It is rumored the F1 cars will have a "boost" button to increase torque on track out....but for roadcars, BMW would automate that...probably using the throttle position modulate the torque delivery
  • So the new MDCT transmission we see in the M3s is already obsolscent.
If BMW puts together such a package, we should expect to see a car that outhandles and out-acceleraters today's M5 / M6 with a 25% improvement in fuel economy.

This is my theory......thoughts?

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/04...tem-from-2009/
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Last edited by T Bone; 28th April 2008 at 20:37.
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Old 29th April 2008, 06:40   #2
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I'm in - KERS, DCT, weight reduction, more power - who could argue? Sounds like those elements could make a nice M3 as well.
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Old 30th April 2008, 04:39   #3
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That's an interesting and excellent analysis ... well done. But with all that new stuff to apply, I don't imagine we will see an F10 M5 until model year 2013.

I was just reading the latest edition of Bimmer Magazine (June 2008) and they were raving RAVING about the new M3 engine - "perhaps the single greatest achievement to have ever come from BMW M GmhH." This from a stogy group of traditionalists who had been crying boo-hoo about the new M3 without an inline 6.

So if BMW can continue this arc of engine development, the next M5 could be a very special car.

Sign me up.
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Old 30th April 2008, 05:13   #4
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What is so different about the M3 motor from the M5? I was reading in another thread that the bottom end is extremely stout, i.e. able to handle FI without swapping internals. I thought it was basically an M5 motor -2 cylinders... not true?

Not meaning to hijack - if this is true, it would logically apply X 2 to the next M5.
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Old 30th April 2008, 20:38   #5
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Looks like AMG is going to smaller turbo motors.....

http://www.motorauthority.com/cars/m...nt-amg-v8-v12/

700 hp with good fuel economy would be a very good thing.

sunshine-t?? Thoughts?
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Old 7th May 2008, 20:15   #6
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http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsAr...Series/232600/#


No turbos.....think KER....

Sunshine-t do I get a gold star (or free car) if I get this right?
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Old 7th May 2008, 20:29   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Five50 View Post
That's an interesting and excellent analysis ... well done. But with all that new stuff to apply, I don't imagine we will see an F10 M5 until model year 2013.

.
I was thinking no later than MY2011.
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Old 7th May 2008, 22:09   #8
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I completely agree with T Bones analysis.

Hey, any of you remember Ford's F-350 concept truck that had a giant hydraulic cylinder that could add 100 ft lb+ to the rear axle during times of demand? Pretty cool device (not sure if it was KER or not).
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Old 28th June 2009, 22:03   #9
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OMG....

I so hope this is true!!

Next BMW M5 to feature twin-turbo V10, KERS?

I will remove all my recent hatred for the perception of ///M being watered down.

V10 TT with KERs..... That would rock the blocks.

Go BMW!!!! Do it!!!
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Old 28th June 2009, 22:48   #10
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I know! I know!

Rumor also is an 8 speed M DCT transmission with 7 performance gears and perhaps 1 fuel economy gear?

Also heard 8 speed SMG IV but that doesn't sound realistic.

If this is in fact based off of the 4.4 L V8 biturbo, this engine will be roughly 5.5 L?

With biturbo you are looking at a reliable 600-650 hp and 550-600 ft lb at that displacement.

If they go with a 10 cylinder it shows you that BMW still feels that the M5 is their flagship technology-performance car.
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