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Old 24th April 2012, 09:29   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whatheheck View Post
Just got a call back from SA. (My regular SA is off on Mondays.)

Fault determined to be SMG hydraulic pump failure.
He said possibly from too much shifting so it overheated and failed. (Does the ECU report number of shifts?)

So I asked the SA, can you define too much shifting for me and where in the manual that is covered so I can read it and understand when not to overshift? No answer......
Hello Dan. Was he providing this information as an attempt to try and explain what happened or was he attempting to present a case for them not to cover it?

It just seems like a nonsense discussion. If the part has failed, it has failed. Shifting too much, not shifting enough or thinking about shifting and not shifting all have about the same impact on a functional pump. I'm confused as to why a failed part needs an explanation such as this...


Quote:
Originally Posted by whatheheck View Post
SMG pump now on order. Thank God I am still under CPO warranty as I know nothing is cheap when it comes to service from the dealer.

ECD to get my car back is Wednesday this week. Will see how much this is if I was out of warranty once I see the service receipt.

Will keep you all posted.
It's great to hear that you're covered -- now it's only the missing of your beast that you have to endure.

Speaking of the SMG and its related components, what is the general experience and consensus of those with CPO and aftermarket warranties concerning SMG repairs? The clutch is not covered but everything else is? I think an argument could be made when it's the clutch of semi-automatic transmission because it's an automated clutch vs. a regular 6-speed manual clutch.

-b.
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Last edited by carrisco; 24th April 2012 at 09:30.
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Old 24th April 2012, 10:14   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Carson View Post
You should talk to Moderator Ashok Arora. Do a search in the E60 forum - and be prepared to cry.
Thats really crazy. Very poor move on BMW's part to make such a weak tranny. The smg should hold up far more than a standard clutch and even a standard doesnt go out that quickly.
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Old 24th April 2012, 10:17   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasan Shaikh View Post
Hi Dan!

I don't think too much shifting can be the cause of the failed pump. The SMG pumps on these cars are weak and go bad on a regular basis.

Im surprised that bmw wouldnt recall the pump then. Thats absurd. What idiot decided to put a weak pump on a $100k+ race car.
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Old 24th April 2012, 10:20   #34
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I would have to disagree.

The Tranny is not weak. No SMG clutch will ever last longer than a manual. A comparison between an SMG and a manual clutch's life is unfair.

Compare the BMW SMG clutch life to comparable SMGs by Ferrari and Lambo and you will find that the BMW SMG clutch actually lasts twice as long as others.


Quote:
Originally Posted by built240 View Post
Thats really crazy. Very poor move on BMW's part to make such a weak tranny. The smg should hold up far more than a standard clutch and even a standard doesnt go out that quickly.
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Old 24th April 2012, 10:20   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carrisco View Post
Hello Dan. Was he providing this information as an attempt to try and explain what happened or was he attempting to present a case for them not to cover it?

It just seems like a nonsense discussion. If the part has failed, it has failed. Shifting too much, not shifting enough or thinking about shifting and not shifting all have about the same impact on a functional pump. I'm confused as to why a failed part needs an explanation such as this...




It's great to hear that you're covered -- now it's only the missing of your beast that you have to endure.

Speaking of the SMG and its related components, what is the general experience and consensus of those with CPO and aftermarket warranties concerning SMG repairs? The clutch is not covered but everything else is? I think an argument could be made when it's the clutch of semi-automatic transmission because it's an automated clutch vs. a regular 6-speed manual clutch.

-b.
Its a fine line with the warranties. I went with the highest plan NAC offers and the clutch and pump are covered if they go out while the car still has low miles. Now im at 43k miles which is low so im not sure what is defined as "high" but if my pump/clutch goes out under 60k miles then im going to spend $5k on a lawyer instead of the new clutch and sue the hell outta whoever I can to get the clutch covered
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Old 24th April 2012, 10:55   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasan Shaikh View Post
I would have to disagree.

The Tranny is not weak. No SMG clutch will ever last longer than a manual. A comparison between an SMG and a manual clutch's life is unfair.

Compare the BMW SMG clutch life to comparable SMGs by Ferrari and Lambo and you will find that the BMW SMG clutch actually lasts twice as long as others.
Why would the clutch for an SMG or a manual have a different life? The torque from the engine is the same and one could argue that the SMG can't "abuse" the clutch the way that a bad driver of a manual can.

If there is some valid reason for this, I'd truly like to know what it it. I understand that there are more components in an SMG so there is more to go wrong and more expensive bits to fix. But the clutch life escapes me unless an SMG is on average shifted more often than a manual.

Isn't the funny origin story for Lamborghini that tractor maker Lamborghini (and also a Ferrari car customer) complained about the life of the clutch and Enzo told Ferrucio to stuff it as it he made tractors. And Lamborghini got so mad he started making his own cars to show Enzo that a performance car could have a reliable clutch. Or so I've heard. Good story either way.

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Last edited by Mark Carson; 24th April 2012 at 10:58.
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Old 24th April 2012, 10:59   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Carson View Post
Why would the clutch for an SMG or a manual have a different life? The torque from the engine is the same and one could argue that the SMG can't "abuse" the clutch the way that a bad driver of a manual can.

If there is some valid reason for this, I'd truly like to know what it it. I understand that there are more components in an SMG so there is more to go wrong and more expensive bits to fix. But the clutch life escapes me unless an SMG is on average shifted more often than a manual.
That would be my argument with the warranty companies too. An automatic clutch (aside from launch control abuse) should ensure a "best case" time-to-wear ratio vs. a manual clutch. Calling it exactly the same "normal wear" item as brakes or tires doesn't cut it for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Carson View Post
Isn't the funny origin story for Lamborghini that tractor maker Lamborghini (and also a Ferrari car customer) complained about the life of the clutch and Enzo told Ferrucio to stuff it as it he made tractors. And Lamborghini got so mad he started making his own cars to show Enzo that a performance car could have a reliable clutch. Or so I've heard. Good story either way.

Cheers
You, sir, are correct. I remember hearing (a much simpler version of) the story as a child.. Below is from an interview with Ferruccio:

"“All my Ferraris had clutch problems. When you drove normally, everything was
fine. But when you were going hard, the clutch would slip under acceleration; it
just wasn't up to the job. I went to Maranello regularly to have a clutch
rebuilt or renewed, and every time, the car was taken away for several hours and
I was not allowed to watch them repairing it. The problem with the clutch was
never cured, so I decided to talk to Enzo Ferrari. I had to wait for him a very
long time. 'Ferrari, your cars are rubbish!' I complained. Il Commendatore was
furious. "Lamborghini, you may be able to drive a tractor but you will never be
able to handle a Ferrari Properly.' This was the point when I finally decided to
make a perfect car.

To start with, I bought a bigger clutch from Borg & Beck and had it fitted in
the tractor factory workshop. Then we discarded Ferrari's cylinder heads, which
were rather simple affairs with just a single overhead camshaft and 12 rockers.
I had them replaced by heads of our own design with twin cam shafts. We then put
the engine back in the 250GT and fitted six horizontally mounted carburettors,
just like on the 350GT two years later. It was already quite a good car.
Several times I used to wait for test drivers from Maranello, with Prova MO
plates on their cars, at the entrance to the motorway near Modena. After some
time we would be doing 230, 240kph [145-150mph] and then I would start to pull
away from them - my Ferrari was at least 25kph faster than theirs thanks to our
four-cam conversion. 'Hey, Lamborghini, what have you done to your car?' they
would ask me later 'Oh, I don't know" I used to answer with a grin!”
"

http://www.400gt.com/articles/compare/interview.htm

-b.

Last edited by carrisco; 24th April 2012 at 11:10.
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Old 24th April 2012, 11:28   #38
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Hi Mark!

Although I agree that based on the technological principal, the SMG should last longer than a manual. However, the facts reported on various forums suggest otherwise. I believe the answer lies not in the way the clutch is engaged or disengaged, but in the material that is used for both the clutch plates. This subject definitely requires more research and I shall post my findings here.

I have also herd the same story about Enzo and Ferrucio and believe it to be true.

Best Regards
Hasan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Carson View Post
Why would the clutch for an SMG or a manual have a different life? The torque from the engine is the same and one could argue that the SMG can't "abuse" the clutch the way that a bad driver of a manual can.

If there is some valid reason for this, I'd truly like to know what it it. I understand that there are more components in an SMG so there is more to go wrong and more expensive bits to fix. But the clutch life escapes me unless an SMG is on average shifted more often than a manual.

Isn't the funny origin story for Lamborghini that tractor maker Lamborghini (and also a Ferrari car customer) complained about the life of the clutch and Enzo told Ferrucio to stuff it as it he made tractors. And Lamborghini got so mad he started making his own cars to show Enzo that a performance car could have a reliable clutch. Or so I've heard. Good story either way.

Cheers
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Old 24th April 2012, 11:31   #39
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Is there a way to find out how many miles the clutch lasts on the 6MT E6x Ms and how the car was driven in each case.

I believe the clutch on the E39 M5s also gave up quite quickly if the car was driven hard on a regular basis.
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Old 24th April 2012, 12:02   #40
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Agree Hasan - emperical evidence seems to show that SMG cars have clutches that don't last forever. I just want to to know why also. Harder driving may explain it. But a tech telling Dan he had "excessive shifting" seems suspect to me.

But then again Dan admits to riding "Betsy" pretty hard, ha ha.
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