Stock S85 V10 engine and nitrous oxide?

[rocket5979]

Originally Posted by KILLZBUGZ

I was thinking I would do a dry system as ASR was doing it because I already have their exhaust, intake and a tune and the intakes have holes for the nozzle insertion. I am thinking this is a safe and easier way. Would you recommend this dry method or is that just a waste if I am going to do NOS? I am just wondering why ASR never did a wet method and dry and I hear that all their NOS customers are quite happy with their setups.

I don't know how many times I can say this. Wet nitrous is better than dry. It produces more torque, it is more tuneable, and it is safer for your engine. I am feeling a little lazy this morning so rather than post another long reply in my own words I am going to plagiarize a bit.

This excerpt was taken from the NX webpage:

"If you have investigated Nitrous Express at all you will notice we manufacture no street oriented “DRY” nitrous systems. There is a very good reason for this, they are bad news and guaranteed to damage engine parts. Why you ask? Every intake manifold made, either by the factory or the aftermarket is a compromise. No two cylinders get the same amount of air. Try as they might even the best sheet metal race intakes flow differently across all cylinders. When dry nitrous is introduced into the intake air stream of any intake manifold every cylinder will get a different amount of nitrous. Some will get more, and some will get less. Now, where does the fuel come from to utilize this nitrous? It comes from the stock injectors. Being an inanimate piece of hardware all it knows to do is introduce a predetermined amount of fuel into the cylinder that the ECM tells it to. This is without regard to how much nitrous actually got to the cylinder. Therefore every cylinder will be either rich or lean, but none will have the correct air/fuel ratio. Depending on how far this ratio is off will determine how much damage is going to happen to this cylinder. Very small amounts of nitrous can be successfully introduced without damage but the resulting imbalance of nitrous/fuel is always harmful to the engine.The proponents of “DRY” nitrous systems claim that modern intake manifolds were not designed to flow fuel therefore they cannot. What a load of crap! The air speed inside of an intake manifold operating at wide-open throttle is more that the speed of sound, 750 MPH give or take. When properly atomized fuel is introduced into the intake stream it will follow the airflow, it would be impossible for this atomized fuel to condense into a liquid and form a “Puddle” anywhere in the manifold. The key to wet technology is complete atomization of the incoming fuel charge. Some nozzles on the market today will actually drip liquid gasoline off the tip when operating, if you use this type of flawed design on a wet system trouble will surely result. The patented NX nozzle designs will fully atomize all fuel before it leaves the nozzle body, therefore guaranteeing that no un-atomized fuel with enter the air stream. Another seldom talked about advantage of wet systems is the tremendous increase in torque compared to a dry kit. The superior atomization of the wet systems allows a complete burn of all fuel present in the combustion chamber resulting in tremendous torque production. Often a wet system will produce 50% more torque than a comparable “Dry” kit. You should all know by now that torque is what propels your vehicle forward and nothing does it better than a wet nitrous system from Nitrous Express!
Now lets discuss one type of “Dry” system that is acceptable. Direct Port; the direct port distribution of the nitrous charge eliminates the rich/lean cylinder draw back on the dry technology. Many of the top Pro-Mod teams have gone to this type of system for ease of tuning with the electronic fuel injection systems. However they are still giving up a ton of torque by using this technology."

Remember that just because a performance shop, such as ASR in this case, uses a certain method doesn't make it good and it certainly doesn't mean it is the best or safest approach. Is installing a wet nitrous system any harder than a dry? Not really. The job will take longer but is mainly just more repetition of what would have already been done had you only performed a dry nitrous install. About the only additional thing would be the standalone nitrous fuel system. That is as simple as mounting tank/pump/fpr unit where you want it, running a pre-made fuel line to the fuel solenoid, and hooking 2 wires up for power and ground for the fuel pump. I have been designing and installing mild to wild nitrous systems, dry and wet, for many different makes and models of vehicle for over 12 years now and have be tuning ECU's for them for about half as long. I am only trying to help a fellow enthusiast out.

[USAF]

PERFECTLY stated Robert. There are just so many advantages to the wet system I can't imagine why any tuning company would even consider a dry system. Maybe for ease of marketing or installation? It's a concept that's probably right on the edge damage-wise. If some are running a dry "150" shot (if it's truly 150) safely, I'd imagine we could easily run a wet 200 shot safely in these engines. Has anyone dyno'd their nitrous shot to see if it's producing as advertised?

[5.7 silver bullet]

Originally Posted by USAF

Rocket 5979,

Nitrous express lists a dual nozzle system for all BMW's which already includes 2 nozzles, t-blocks, extra line etc. It's part number 20816-10 and here's the details. It would probably be easier for folks if they just ordered this system instead of trying to determine which additional parts to buy. The picture I attached is of this system.

Nitrous Express » Next Generation Nitrous Oxide Systems » BMW EFI ALL (50-300HP) DUAL NOZZLE WITH 10LB BOTTLE

"This system works on all fuel injected BMWs. The dual Shark nozzles give adjustability from 50 to 300 wheel horsepower. System comes complete with 10lb nitrous bottle, stainless bottle bracket, Lightning solenoids, extra long stainless braided N2O line, and all necessary hardware to complete the installation"

The stand-alone fuel system that will be needed is NX part number 15009. Here's the link and details;

Nitrous Express » Next Generation Nitrous Oxide Systems » SAFE, STAND ALONE FUEL ENRICHMENT SYSTEM, INTERNAL PUMP, NON ADJUSTABLE, GASOLINE

"The Nitrous Express SAFE (Stand Alone Fuel Enrichment) system improves the performance of any nitrous system. The SAFE system includes a one gallon, high strength, composite fuel cell that can be mounted in most factory battery trays without modification. The SAFE System comes preassembled with a self regulating internally mounted fuel pump making installation quick and simple. This SAFE system is designed to run with gasoline and will support up to 300 nitrous horsepower. When used with race gas, the need to retard timing is significantly reduced. Often on V8 engines using nitrous boosts of 150 horsepower and above zero timing retard is required. The SAFE system reduces the need to upgrade OEM fuel pumps, and will completely eliminate pressure drop at the fuel rail in EFI vehicles. The SAFE System includes an integrated fuel level gauge and all mounting hardware for a no hassle installation! Note: special jetting patterns are required. Contact NX Tech for jetting patterns. Not for use with boosted applications. Tank dimensions are 9Lx6Wx8H"

For folks buying this system, they can ask the tech how many feet of line they will need for the stand-alone fuel system and there's really no other parts they would have to buy unless the tech can recommend some. Total cost for everything should be under $1500 unless you pay someone to install the system. When I get home in July I'll install this system myself and take pics along the way describing the process. Depending on where on the intake plenum you want to install this it could be installed as a hidden system also. The two holes could easily be tapped in the back of the plenum and the lines/solenoids could be hidden.

To tap the holes you'll need the $17 NX part number 91018 1/8 NPT tap. Or any 1/8 NPT tap will work you can get at your hardware store. I've also determined a method to tap the plenum without removing the plenum. 1 year away from my car gives me lots of time to think about car stuff and brainstorm ideas.

If someone is able to install this system before I do in July, please consider a thread with the process described with pics even if you have someone install it for you.

Good luck!

So were would you mount the the switch on a M5? Looks like about 1200.00 for the whole wet system with fuel tank. were would you mount the tank again M5? says it will fit in a battery tray. just put race gas in the tank and get a octane boost when on the spray.

[rocket5979]

Originally Posted by 5.7 silver bullet

So were would you mount the the switch on a M5? Looks like about 1200.00 for the whole wet system with fuel tank. were would you mount the tank again M5? says it will fit in a battery tray. just put race gas in the tank and get a octane boost when on the spray.

When you say switch I assume you mean either the master arming nitrous switch or the nitrous fuel system fuel pump activation switch. The good thing is that they can be one and the same. With a single flip of a switch both your nitrous system is turned on and ready to activate once it senses that you are wide open throttle and in a certain pre-designated RPM window; and also can turn your nitrous fuel system on at the same time too. The location of the switch is up to personal preference. You can mount it somewhere on the dash, center console area, underdash, inside center console, etc.

The nitrous fuel tank/pump/fpr can mount anywhere that you have the room for it. The most popular places to mount them are under the hood mounted out of the way of other moving parts or in the trunk with a long fuel line ran forward to the engine bay.

[rocket5979]

Originally Posted by USAF

(if it's truly 150) safely, I'd imagine we could easily run a wet 200 shot safely in these engines. Has anyone dyno'd their nitrous shot to see if it's producing as advertised?

Remember that some nitrous system manufacturers rate their jets for horsepower gained at the crank while some rate theirs for horsepower that will be gained at the tires. NX is one that rates their jets at the rear wheels while Nitrous Works (NW) rates theirs at the crank because the orifice size is slightly smaller in the NW jets. You will almost always gain the amount of horsepower that a system manufacturer advertises their jets for as long as you make sure to keep nitrous bottle pressure at the pressure that the jets are rated for. Now when you get into big direct port systems like the one you plan on doing, where you need to ensure great flow of a butt-ton of nitrous, then turbulence comes more into play and can affect how much percentage of the full pressure of nitrous actually makes it to the nozzles and jets.

[MIGHTY5]

im about as green as you can be when it comes to understanding no2 use and function but after reading this thread i feel i have at better understanding of how it can be used correclty and safely for that i thank all of you on here. i might just have to go the nitrous route now. okay so quick summary... dry sucks, wet is better plus much more torque. okay that being said i have an aftermarket tune done on my m5 would i need to get a nos spacific tune done to run a wet system? so in your opinions it would seem safe to run 150 shot right? now it seems that the dual port or Y port is the better of the options available but why not just run a bigger port on a single nosle? is it because the mist will be too thick? sorry for the green questions i have alot of reading to do now thanks!

[USAF]

With a "wet" system (nitrous & fuel injected) you won't need a tune OR an adjustment to your tune UNLESS your tune involved an advance of the timing above and beyond what our motors came with from the factory. If you've had a tune done, to determine this, ask the company that tuned your car exactly this: "Does the tune on my car involve an advance of the timing that may create harmful detonation if I install a wet nitrous system?" Ask it exactly like that. If they say yes, then they will have to adjust the tune to bring the ignition timing back to original numbers. With a DRY nitrous system you would HAVE to have a tune done to account for the lack of extra fuel being injected with the nitrous shot. BUT, with a "wet" shot which injects BOTH fuel AND nitrous you would not need a tune done if you've never had one before.

The "dual port" or "y port" you talk of is the design of the nozzle. A "dry" nozzle is a single inlet port on the nozzle to inject nitrous only. A "dual" or "Y" nozzle has 2 inlets, one inlet for nitrous and one inlet for fuel. This "y" or "dual" nozzle is what you would use for a "wet" system. If you look at the diagram Rocket created this is all very clear.

You talk of "why not run a bigger port on a single nozzle", again, 2 ports equal fuel AND nitrous. A "single" nozzle from what you are referring to (I believe) is a "dry" nozzle designed to only inject nitrous. Again, refer to the diagram Rocket created.

It's very simple, research the NX kit I suggested earlier (Part # 20816) with the 2 nozzles for $844.01 and that is the kit you will want. You'll also need the other fuel system for $450 and a line to run that fuel from the trunk to the engine compartment. The best thing to do would be to call Nitrous Express and tell them you want the dual nozzle system, part number 20816 and then if you want a 10 or 15 pound bottle. Tell them you want the fuel delivery system part number 15009 for $414.88. If you buy this system before the end of Feb you get a free purge system also. They can explain what that is. Just let them know you'll need everything to install that system and they'll hook you up. If I was home now I'd install this over the weekend and post a good summary but unfortunately, I won't be home until July.

Rocket, get an M6 just so you can do an install for us!!!

[USAF]

Here's a good FAQ link that may help some understand better.

Nitrous Express » Next Generation Nitrous Oxide Systems

[MIGHTY5]

Originally Posted by USAF

With a "wet" system (nitrous & fuel injected) you won't need a tune OR an adjustment to your tune UNLESS your tune involved an advance of the timing above and beyond what our motors came with from the factory. If you've had a tune done, to determine this, ask the company that tuned your car exactly this: "Does the tune on my car involve an advance of the timing that may create harmful detonation if I install a wet nitrous system?" Ask it exactly like that. If they say yes, then they will have to adjust the tune to bring the ignition timing back to original numbers. With a DRY nitrous system you would HAVE to have a tune done to account for the lack of extra fuel being injected with the nitrous shot. BUT, with a "wet" shot which injects BOTH fuel AND nitrous you would not need a tune done if you've never had one before.

The "dual port" or "y port" you talk of is the design of the nozzle. A "dry" nozzle is a single inlet port on the nozzle to inject nitrous only. A "dual" or "Y" nozzle has 2 inlets, one inlet for nitrous and one inlet for fuel. This "y" or "dual" nozzle is what you would use for a "wet" system. If you look at the diagram Rocket created this is all very clear.

You talk of "why not run a bigger port on a single nozzle", again, 2 ports equal fuel AND nitrous. A "single" nozzle from what you are referring to (I believe) is a "dry" nozzle designed to only inject nitrous. Again, refer to the diagram Rocket created.

It's very simple, research the NX kit I suggested earlier (Part # 20816) with the 2 nozzles for $844.01 and that is the kit you will want. You'll also need the other fuel system for $450 and a line to run that fuel from the trunk to the engine compartment. The best thing to do would be to call Nitrous Express and tell them you want the dual nozzle system, part number 20816 and then if you want a 10 or 15 pound bottle. Tell them you want the fuel delivery system part number 15009 for $414.88. If you buy this system before the end of Feb you get a free purge system also. They can explain what that is. Just let them know you'll need everything to install that system and they'll hook you up. If I was home now I'd install this over the weekend and post a good summary but unfortunately, I won't be home until July.

Rocket, get an M6 just so you can do an install for us!!!

thanks again for the info and all the help you guys, its alot to take in at once but its a very interesting read for sure. i just might pull the trigger on the nitrous express system you mentioned but first ill call my tuner regarding the tune and if there was an advance. man this forum is bad for the bank account. thanks everyone again and happy modding!

[irishbimmer]

Mighty5-What are the chances of you blowing up your motor with the nitrous?

Bill