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Old 12th November 2005, 16:54   #1
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Manual Tranny – How Will The Overall Package Be Affected?

As the E60 M5 was designed for SMG 3, I am curious as to what sacrifices will be made to adapt the manual transmission. Personally I have no gripe with SMG other than I really do enjoy manually shifting so I have been hesitant to jump on an E60 to date. Will M Drive have less configurable options and the HUD offer a little less information? Some of the posts I have read suggest that the manual transmission will not perform as well as SMG but we really have no evidence of this. At higher speeds, the 7 speed SMG should out perform and out run the manual assuming 6 gears, but in real world day to day driving, will the performance differences be noticeable? As the V10 really likes to rev, will the 7 speed SMG be more suited to the nature of this engine or will a manual transmission work just as well with this package? I am sure that when the manual transmission arrives, BMW will not disappoint.

I passed on my September build but my dealer has offered me a December slot. I am really tempted but I can’t help but wonder if SMG is right for me or if I should wait for a 2007 with the stick.

I like to hear your comments.

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Old 12th November 2005, 18:02   #2
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Re: Manual Tranny – How Will The Overall Package Be Affected?

Very good post...interesting questions that I too have been thinking about. Anyone out there have any up to date information on these subjects?
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Old 12th November 2005, 18:11   #3
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Re: Manual Tranny – How Will The Overall Package Be Affected?

Ahhh Terk, you and me both buddy.

I will take this thread in a slightly different direction since I don't know the answer to the question at hand- though, I'd sure love to know.

I have made my decision, with a heavy heart, but it is made. I am not going to take my E39 M5 off its lease as I had thought. I guess I have caught up with technology/ progress. I am going for an M6 instead. I simply like the idea of having a 4 seat coupe in the mix (the rear seats are for my kiddies). My conclusion, before seeing the 6 speed, is as you and others say: the cars are designed for SMG. I've driven it, although it was all too brief. When my dealer gets a demonstrator M5 I will borrow it for a little while. Whats funny is he thought Id want to flog it on the highway. Nothing could be further from what I want to verify for myself. We all know its fast. My question is does the system reaffirm my sense of fun that I got from my brief test drive. I think we have to accept the fact that its just different. In my mind this falls somewhere in a grey area between an automatic and a stick shift. I have found that some automatic based cars can be fun and I think my attitude on this has changed a little bit. Most of my driving wont be all the way to the red line nuts driving- so I will drive the demo on the same roads, to the same places, etc that I normally would.

Out of curiosity I made this little chart. I made it for another friend with an M5 and a Z8 with the Quaife 3.64 rear end. It is an excel sheet, but for some reason the upload applet will not let me send an .xls file. So I printed it to PDF and now all is OK .

I figured that in order to make up for the relatively high torque peak at 6100 RPMs, BMW would give us a kind of super aggressive 1st gear to be a kind of "tree-stump puller"- relative to what we have in the Z8 and M5. But thats not at all what they did.

First let me say I just did this quickly in some spare time where I looked at some charts that were done of the hp and torque curves of both the V8 and V10- so I had to pick data points and more or less guess what the values should be. However, I think it gives a good picture of whats going on.

What I see when I quickly look at this is the V10 (comparing to the M5) is about 10% down on power and torque in the lower RPMs but it is about 8% ahead in gearing in 1st gear. I would imagine a shift at around 4500 RPM in daily around town driving. There we're just down about 1% on torque and about 6% in power. But we will put in 2nd gear where we are about 20% ahead (vs the E39 m5). That should feel faster. Then I could see revving up into the 6000 range before a shift where we are about 20% ahead on torque and 6% on power- hit 3rd gear and you are 24% ahead of the old M5. And it keeps going on from there.

So it seems my gut sense was wrong. BMW didnt give us 1st as a torque gear- instead they must have recognized that we are already at a limit of how much power the tires can take so they are progressively giving more torque multiplication as you work through the gears to give more power to the rear tires as they can handle it. This even greater multiplier effect via gearing as you climb through the gears makes the car feel stronger and stronger. Now how cool is that?!

What will they do with the 6 speed? If they just use the same ratios from the E39 then this effect will not be as pronounced.

In my case, since I have a stick shift car that will remain in the garage, I am 99% of the way there to saying I will give SMGIII a go. I will probably opt for a 2 year lease because I would expect there to be the usual improvements/ freshening and if I find SMGIII is not the fit I expect it to be then I will move on to the 6 speed. I just find the technology too exciting and I think in this version they really refined many of the gripes we've had. My open question is: I know it drives great during aggressive driving- how do I feel about it during the more relaxed day to day stuff. An answer will be forthcoming.
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Old 12th November 2005, 23:28   #4
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Re: Manual Tranny – How Will The Overall Package Be Affected?

Great writeup and insight Jerry.
I bet that there will be a hit to performance since SMG is quicker and more consistant. I guess the question at hand is it worth it to row the gears yourself, or have the best forward speed? I'm sure the answers are about as varied as the M5 owners on this site.
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Old 12th November 2005, 23:32   #5
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Re: Manual Tranny – How Will The Overall Package Be Affected?

I also wonder if I would enjoy the manual shift with a car where I want to keep the revs comparably higher. The whole E60 experience is a kind of configure it your way kind of thing and I think the SMG plays into that: automated or manual, you choose. I was surprised when I drove it that I felt they really had improved it so much.
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Old 13th November 2005, 00:01   #6
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Re: Manual Tranny – How Will The Overall Package Be Affected?

I am going to wait until 6 speed manual. I don't need all of the settings, just a clutch and 507 Hp with a suspension that is good to drive on the roads instead of race track....

The current 545i sport crashes over bumps like it has no suspension (un BMW like)....that is scarry....
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Old 13th November 2005, 00:08   #7
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Re: Manual Tranny – How Will The Overall Package Be Affected?

Quote:
Originally Posted by M5_2010
I am going to wait until 6 speed manual. I don't need all of the settings, just a clutch and 507 Hp with a suspension that is good to drive on the roads instead of race track....

The current 545i sport crashes over bumps like it has no suspension (un BMW like)....that is scarry....
I've had my 545i sport for 9 months and, while it's certainly a compliant suspension, I find it far from harsh. Could it be your dealer didn't remove the transport bump stops? Wouldn't be the first time!
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Old 13th November 2005, 00:10   #8
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Re: Manual Tranny – How Will The Overall Package Be Affected?

I noticed the crashing over bumps too, but in my buds E90 sport. Also, very unBMW like to have a small mid corner bump upset the car.
I agree Jerry, when you have to keeps the revs boiling up for peak power, and the system is geared for it, something might be lost with a manual. But, by the same regard, a Honda S2000 is a blast to rip around in. Nailing great downshifts to keep the revs up is immensely entertaining. My annoyance with that car is that it is dead below 6k. I mean it feels like a Civic, so you are forced to downshift all the time. If the E60 has the fun loving flick the shifter around feel but still drives with good power around town, the stick wouldnt detract too much IMO.
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Old 13th November 2005, 01:56   #9
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Re: Manual Tranny – How Will The Overall Package Be Affected?

And the V10 is not like the Honda engine, which is a lovely engine, btw. It makes nice power down low. But it is not a monster down low. It IS a monster as the revs build. Youre probably right,if you love to shift, you could handle it.
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Old 14th November 2005, 15:58   #10
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Re: Manual Tranny – How Will The Overall Package Be Affected?

Jerry,



Thanks for a very informative post.


I too find my self getting caught up with the progress new technology presents but at the same time, I need to remind myself that the reason I drive this type of car is for fun and enjoyment, so the manual transmission possibilities continue to fog my thinking. My E39 also tugs on the heart strings and as much as I want to move on, I only have 20,000km on mine so giving it up at this time becomes a tough decision. Two M5’s make no sense to me right now and as you have suggested, the M6 does present a slightly different path.


Given the fast revving nature of this engine and the fact that it appears to come alive at higher revs, SMG still seems to be the natural choice. With one less gear, one has to assume that the sacrifice might come at higher speeds but I have to wonder if manually shifting such a quick revving engine might become a deterrent over time with the style of this powertrain.


The manual transmission card was played very late in development by BMW so either they had originally planned to add the manual option later or it was added based on reactions from the E39 purists. If BMW was in fact reluctant to add the manual then time will tell how it will drive and perform compared to SMG.


I am hoping to spend some time in an E60 M5 later this week at which time, I’m sure I will probably answer my own question.


To reflect on some of your past posts, in this instance, we should be grateful that BMW has given us a choice of transmission.


Regards,
Tony
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