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post #21 of 330 Old 14th July 2016, 06:58 PM
jcolley
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Hey guys, thought I'd address a couple of things here:

So Randy is testing the SMG mods for me and he's on round 1 of the changes. To go in greater detail, there are numerous 2D maps associated with the SMG shift characteristics in the DME as well as a *ton* of single byte variables and constants. Much what is done is also handled by PID control and some of the parameters that feed that are handled in the DME. So, by modifying these, we can control some of the characteristics of how the SMG shifts.

I think what many people don't realize about the mss65 and all modern BMW DMEs is they operate on a "torque model". What I mean by that is the DME actually knows how much torque the engine is putting out and what loads to the engine are consuming that torque. This is necessary to provide the level of integration we see on these cars and even more so in their current day offerings with hybrid drivetrains having more than one torque production means.

In order for the DSC/ABS to interact with the DME and provide their functions, they actually request torque increases(!) and decreases via the PT-CAN bus directly from the DME. The DME takes into account the driver's requested torque (from here on out, consider it a torque pedal and not a gas pedal), the torque requested by the cruise control, the torque requested by the DSC (positive or negative), the torque needed to drive the alternator and AC compressor (yes, the actually talk to the DME and communicate this), and finally, the most obvious, the torque applied to the SMG. All you 6MT guys can tune out here (pun intended) for the SMG part, but everything else is the same.

For the longest time, we all understood the to properly shift, the SMG had to match RPM on the layshaft side and flywheel side of the clutch. We hear this on downshifts, we know the DME/SMG do it, but there is so much more to it than that. If you think carefully what a MT driver must do to execute a smooth, lurch free shift, we can start to understand it a little better.

In order to shift smoothly, we need to not only match RPM on either side of the clutch a re-engagement, but we have to take into account how rapidly the vehicle is accelerating or decelerating as well. Think about that, for the smoothest acceleration to happen, ideally we want the drivetrain to put out the exact same torque to the ground on the incoming gear that the outgoing gear was. The difficulty in that is the change in torque multiplication (or division in 7th gear) that happens when changing gear ratio. This means the SMG needs to know it's acceleration rate. This is where the longitudinal sensor comes in. We've all seen it and heard of it when running the SMG adaptation process, but only vaguely understand why it's there. Quite simply, the SMG monitors longitudinal axis acceleration and does some fancy math taking into account vehicle weight (ever wonder why the M5 and M6 have different SMG flashes?), current gear ratio, etc and can determine *exactly how much torque* is being applied to the driveshaft. It doesn't care about knowing the final drive ratio, because it never has to calculate anything changing for ratio. So, in order to maintain an exact amount of longitudinal acceleration, the SMG looks at how much torque it's putting out, then looks at the gear the driver just requested, and calculates the exact amount of torque the engine should produce to maintain driveshaft torque constant when the clutch is released. Yes, the SMG actually requests a specific value in newton-meters from the DME.

Similarly, when wheel spin is detected, the DSC requests a specific newton-meter reduction in torque from the DME to reduce the slip to zero (DSC in normal) or to some given allowable slip rate (M-dynamic). Additionally, the DSC can request an increase in torque in a sliding situation and then clamp a single brake caliper on the rear to force the diff to accelerate a single wheel. Yep, all that happens via the torque model in the DME.

So, understanding the torque model allows for smoothing the SMG a few different ways. First off, how does the DME know how much torque the engine is producing? Does it have strain gages measuring torque output? A handy idea that has made its way into cycling for the last 15 years, but not to our cars (yet). No, the DME just has a plain dumb map of torque stored in it. When BMW went through the long initial calibration process for the mss65, they recorded the torque output of the engine in a 2D table. This map is then referenced by the torque model and when a specific N-m output is called for, it looks up the correct throttle plate opening for the current engine RPM.

So.

What happens when we start tuning the engine and increasing power output? Does the DME know it's more powerful? Nope. Not unless the torque maps were altered to reflect what the new engine calibration was capable of. For the most part, the effects will be minimal, but in some cases when the output is significantly increased (e.g. the 6.0 strokers), things can get a little tricky. There is also a self-check routine that if the DME believes that torque output is significantly higher than the map, something must be wrong and a safety feature kicks in and can put the DME in a limp mode.

It should be clear at this point that if anyone is still of the belief that performance tuners are just "reverse-engineering" a bunch of hex code and changing maps randomly that would be physically impossible to ever find anything useful.

All of that comes back around to the SMG modifications and a good, solid fundamental understanding of how the SMG works is essential to get the best performance out of it. Remember, BMW had to somewhat tone the car down for sale to the masses. We know it can be full on mental (S6 no-lift shifts), but a lot of improvement can be made knowing the target driver audience better.

Remember back in the day BMW claimed the SMG3 GS7S46BG could execute a gear change in 30 milliseconds? Anyone timed a no lift shift in S6? It isn't 30 msec. I was excited to see Randy's datalogs showing the ignition timing cuts there are made during a shift at WOT. This is the clearest indicator, looking at the duration of that cut. I still think there is room for improvement, but with the obvious analysis and consideration of durability and longevity.

The change Randy is testing, I'm very satisfied with, but waiting for him to accumulate some miles and incorporate his input before I make it available to everyone. Stay tuned, more to follow.
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post #22 of 330 Old 14th July 2016, 07:11 PM
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look out 6MT guys....SMG is getting even faster/better....so you're getting even slower.

sorry had to .

really interested in this tune and backed by a guy who REALLY knows the platform.

- Justin

/// 2008 Space Grey M5 (SMG)
2009 Triumph Speed Triple 1050
2008 Range Rover FullFat

Last edited by horse86; 14th July 2016 at 07:12 PM.
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post #23 of 330 Old 14th July 2016, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by horse86 View Post
by a guy who REALLY knows the platform.
Was there ever any doubt?

I challenge any BMW Engineer current or past to be as familiar in the details of the s85 package.

Current Engineers do not care to know, past Engineers those involved in development of original design have lost far more knowledge than Jim has gained,
I base that on my own experience being past middle age I recall the concepts but less of the details on developments I was involved with 15-years ago.

Not saying I was as smart (or dumb?) as any BMW engineer. LOL

Last edited by ticat928; 14th July 2016 at 07:46 PM.
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post #24 of 330 Old 14th July 2016, 08:06 PM
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post #25 of 330 Old 14th July 2016, 08:25 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcolley View Post
Hey guys, thought I'd address a couple of things here:

So Randy is testing the SMG mods for me and he's on round 1 of the changes. To go in greater detail, there are numerous 2D maps associated with the SMG shift characteristics in the DME as well as a *ton* of single byte variables and constants. Much what is done is also handled by PID control and some of the parameters that feed that are handled in the DME. So, by modifying these, we can control some of the characteristics of how the SMG shifts.

I think what many people don't realize about the mss65 and all modern BMW DMEs is they operate on a "torque model". What I mean by that is the DME actually knows how much torque the engine is putting out and what loads to the engine are consuming that torque. This is necessary to provide the level of integration we see on these cars and even more so in their current day offerings with hybrid drivetrains having more than one torque production means.

In order for the DSC/ABS to interact with the DME and provide their functions, they actually request torque increases(!) and decreases via the PT-CAN bus directly from the DME. The DME takes into account the driver's requested torque (from here on out, consider it a torque pedal and not a gas pedal), the torque requested by the cruise control, the torque requested by the DSC (positive or negative), the torque needed to drive the alternator and AC compressor (yes, the actually talk to the DME and communicate this), and finally, the most obvious, the torque applied to the SMG. All you 6MT guys can tune out here (pun intended) for the SMG part, but everything else is the same.

For the longest time, we all understood the to properly shift, the SMG had to match RPM on the layshaft side and flywheel side of the clutch. We hear this on downshifts, we know the DME/SMG do it, but there is so much more to it than that. If you think carefully what a MT driver must do to execute a smooth, lurch free shift, we can start to understand it a little better.

In order to shift smoothly, we need to not only match RPM on either side of the clutch a re-engagement, but we have to take into account how rapidly the vehicle is accelerating or decelerating as well. Think about that, for the smoothest acceleration to happen, ideally we want the drivetrain to put out the exact same torque to the ground on the incoming gear that the outgoing gear was. The difficulty in that is the change in torque multiplication (or division in 7th gear) that happens when changing gear ratio. This means the SMG needs to know it's acceleration rate. This is where the longitudinal sensor comes in. We've all seen it and heard of it when running the SMG adaptation process, but only vaguely understand why it's there. Quite simply, the SMG monitors longitudinal axis acceleration and does some fancy math taking into account vehicle weight (ever wonder why the M5 and M6 have different SMG flashes?), current gear ratio, etc and can determine *exactly how much torque* is being applied to the driveshaft. It doesn't care about knowing the final drive ratio, because it never has to calculate anything changing for ratio. So, in order to maintain an exact amount of longitudinal acceleration, the SMG looks at how much torque it's putting out, then looks at the gear the driver just requested, and calculates the exact amount of torque the engine should produce to maintain driveshaft torque constant when the clutch is released. Yes, the SMG actually requests a specific value in newton-meters from the DME.

Similarly, when wheel spin is detected, the DSC requests a specific newton-meter reduction in torque from the DME to reduce the slip to zero (DSC in normal) or to some given allowable slip rate (M-dynamic). Additionally, the DSC can request an increase in torque in a sliding situation and then clamp a single brake caliper on the rear to force the diff to accelerate a single wheel. Yep, all that happens via the torque model in the DME.

So, understanding the torque model allows for smoothing the SMG a few different ways. First off, how does the DME know how much torque the engine is producing? Does it have strain gages measuring torque output? A handy idea that has made its way into cycling for the last 15 years, but not to our cars (yet). No, the DME just has a plain dumb map of torque stored in it. When BMW went through the long initial calibration process for the mss65, they recorded the torque output of the engine in a 2D table. This map is then referenced by the torque model and when a specific N-m output is called for, it looks up the correct throttle plate opening for the current engine RPM.

So.

What happens when we start tuning the engine and increasing power output? Does the DME know it's more powerful? Nope. Not unless the torque maps were altered to reflect what the new engine calibration was capable of. For the most part, the effects will be minimal, but in some cases when the output is significantly increased (e.g. the 6.0 strokers), things can get a little tricky. There is also a self-check routine that if the DME believes that torque output is significantly higher than the map, something must be wrong and a safety feature kicks in and can put the DME in a limp mode.

It should be clear at this point that if anyone is still of the belief that performance tuners are just "reverse-engineering" a bunch of hex code and changing maps randomly that would be physically impossible to ever find anything useful.

All of that comes back around to the SMG modifications and a good, solid fundamental understanding of how the SMG works is essential to get the best performance out of it. Remember, BMW had to somewhat tone the car down for sale to the masses. We know it can be full on mental (S6 no-lift shifts), but a lot of improvement can be made knowing the target driver audience better.

Remember back in the day BMW claimed the SMG3 GS7S46BG could execute a gear change in 30 milliseconds? Anyone timed a no lift shift in S6? It isn't 30 msec. I was excited to see Randy's datalogs showing the ignition timing cuts there are made during a shift at WOT. This is the clearest indicator, looking at the duration of that cut. I still think there is room for improvement, but with the obvious analysis and consideration of durability and longevity.

The change Randy is testing, I'm very satisfied with, but waiting for him to accumulate some miles and incorporate his input before I make it available to everyone. Stay tuned, more to follow.

Such a good description of the complicated inner workings of the platform around SMG shifts. I've just been telling people that Jim did some black magic to somehow make my SMG shifts faster haha. Can't wait to test the next round(s) of changes!!

2008 Space Gray M5

Performance: Infinity Design Equal Length Long Tubular Headers (ceramic coated) | Supersprint 70mm Sec. 1 w/ Dinan 4" Resonators & 70mm Sec. 2 X-Pipe | Dinan: Free Flow Sec. 3 Mufflers, 13% Underdrive Pulley, Throttle Bodies | Evolve Eventuri Intakes | Fast Attack Motorsports AlphaN Tune | 3.91 LSD | RPI SV1 Oil Cooler
Suspension: Bilstein B16 EDC Coilovers | Dinan: FRC, CF F&R Strut Bars, Monoballs | 11" Bimmerworld Adjustable FSB End Links | RDSport RSB
Exterior: Vorsteiner: Molded 2-piece CF Splitters, CF Rear Diffuser, CF Trunk Spoiler | BMW Performance Kidney Grills | iND Painted Gloss Black Side Grills | Painted Bumper Reflectors
Interior: EuroBoutique Custom Steering Wheel | iND Alcantara E-Brake Boot | BMW Performance E-Brake Handle | Dinan Aluminum Pedals | BAVSOUND Stage One Speakers & Ghost Subwoofers
Lighting: LUX H8 160 Angel Eye LEDs | WeissLicht Smoked-out Sidemarker & License Plate LEDs | GP Thunder 45 LED Turn Signals | BMW OEM Interior LEDs
Brakes: StopTech Trophy Kit 380mm Slotted
Wheels (street): 20" HRE P43SC in Gloss Bronze 20x9"et+9, 20x10.5"et+28 w/ Michelin PSS 255/35/20 & 295/30/20
Wheels (track): 18" HRE R40 in Brushed Titanium 18x9"et+17 w/ TMS 12.5mm spacers, 18x10.5"et+28 w/ Toyo R888 245/40/18 & 275/35/18
Misc: Hardwired V1 | Euro SMG & Custom Coding


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post #26 of 330 Old 14th July 2016, 11:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasan Shaikh View Post
So what happens when we take out the SMG and put in a 6MT?
If you compare the two US DME calibration versions listed in the mss65 information thread (7542502 and 7542504) byte for byte, the calibrations are identical save for a single byte that's different in two locations. The program area is identical on all 160E versions, regardless of country, the exception being the 520E version for Euro.

But in the calibration area, the byte that is different is "getreibtype" and is set to 0x40 for SMG and 0x10 for 6MT. This serves as a flag for the program area to pay attention to (and "expect" actually or ignore) PT-CAN traffic from the SMG module.
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post #27 of 330 Old 15th July 2016, 04:11 AM
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Fast Attack Motorsports (FAMS) Tune Review - Dyno & Datalogs

Quote:
Originally Posted by horse86 View Post
look out 6MT guys....SMG is getting even faster/better....so you're getting even slower.

sorry had to .

really interested in this tune and backed by a guy who REALLY knows the platform.

BS. Just ordered my Colley tune. @torque and I will put you to shame as we can throw it in the next gear in 15 ms by hand. Your SMG is still sending CAN Morse code to the DME. Pfff.

Last edited by rt7085; 15th July 2016 at 04:11 AM.
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post #28 of 330 Old 15th July 2016, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcolley View Post
Hey guys, thought I'd address a couple of things here:

So Randy is testing the SMG mods for me and he's on round 1 of the changes. To go in greater detail, there are numerous 2D maps associated with the SMG shift characteristics in the DME as well as a *ton* of single byte variables and constants. Much what is done is also handled by PID control and some of the parameters that feed that are handled in the DME. So, by modifying these, we can control some of the characteristics of how the SMG shifts.

I think what many people don't realize about the mss65 and all modern BMW DMEs is they operate on a "torque model". What I mean by that is the DME actually knows how much torque the engine is putting out and what loads to the engine are consuming that torque. This is necessary to provide the level of integration we see on these cars and even more so in their current day offerings with hybrid drivetrains having more than one torque production means.

In order for the DSC/ABS to interact with the DME and provide their functions, they actually request torque increases(!) and decreases via the PT-CAN bus directly from the DME. The DME takes into account the driver's requested torque (from here on out, consider it a torque pedal and not a gas pedal), the torque requested by the cruise control, the torque requested by the DSC (positive or negative), the torque needed to drive the alternator and AC compressor (yes, the actually talk to the DME and communicate this), and finally, the most obvious, the torque applied to the SMG. All you 6MT guys can tune out here (pun intended) for the SMG part, but everything else is the same.

For the longest time, we all understood the to properly shift, the SMG had to match RPM on the layshaft side and flywheel side of the clutch. We hear this on downshifts, we know the DME/SMG do it, but there is so much more to it than that. If you think carefully what a MT driver must do to execute a smooth, lurch free shift, we can start to understand it a little better.

In order to shift smoothly, we need to not only match RPM on either side of the clutch a re-engagement, but we have to take into account how rapidly the vehicle is accelerating or decelerating as well. Think about that, for the smoothest acceleration to happen, ideally we want the drivetrain to put out the exact same torque to the ground on the incoming gear that the outgoing gear was. The difficulty in that is the change in torque multiplication (or division in 7th gear) that happens when changing gear ratio. This means the SMG needs to know it's acceleration rate. This is where the longitudinal sensor comes in. We've all seen it and heard of it when running the SMG adaptation process, but only vaguely understand why it's there. Quite simply, the SMG monitors longitudinal axis acceleration and does some fancy math taking into account vehicle weight (ever wonder why the M5 and M6 have different SMG flashes?), current gear ratio, etc and can determine *exactly how much torque* is being applied to the driveshaft. It doesn't care about knowing the final drive ratio, because it never has to calculate anything changing for ratio. So, in order to maintain an exact amount of longitudinal acceleration, the SMG looks at how much torque it's putting out, then looks at the gear the driver just requested, and calculates the exact amount of torque the engine should produce to maintain driveshaft torque constant when the clutch is released. Yes, the SMG actually requests a specific value in newton-meters from the DME.

Similarly, when wheel spin is detected, the DSC requests a specific newton-meter reduction in torque from the DME to reduce the slip to zero (DSC in normal) or to some given allowable slip rate (M-dynamic). Additionally, the DSC can request an increase in torque in a sliding situation and then clamp a single brake caliper on the rear to force the diff to accelerate a single wheel. Yep, all that happens via the torque model in the DME.

So, understanding the torque model allows for smoothing the SMG a few different ways. First off, how does the DME know how much torque the engine is producing? Does it have strain gages measuring torque output? A handy idea that has made its way into cycling for the last 15 years, but not to our cars (yet). No, the DME just has a plain dumb map of torque stored in it. When BMW went through the long initial calibration process for the mss65, they recorded the torque output of the engine in a 2D table. This map is then referenced by the torque model and when a specific N-m output is called for, it looks up the correct throttle plate opening for the current engine RPM.

So.

What happens when we start tuning the engine and increasing power output? Does the DME know it's more powerful? Nope. Not unless the torque maps were altered to reflect what the new engine calibration was capable of. For the most part, the effects will be minimal, but in some cases when the output is significantly increased (e.g. the 6.0 strokers), things can get a little tricky. There is also a self-check routine that if the DME believes that torque output is significantly higher than the map, something must be wrong and a safety feature kicks in and can put the DME in a limp mode.

It should be clear at this point that if anyone is still of the belief that performance tuners are just "reverse-engineering" a bunch of hex code and changing maps randomly that would be physically impossible to ever find anything useful.

All of that comes back around to the SMG modifications and a good, solid fundamental understanding of how the SMG works is essential to get the best performance out of it. Remember, BMW had to somewhat tone the car down for sale to the masses. We know it can be full on mental (S6 no-lift shifts), but a lot of improvement can be made knowing the target driver audience better.

Remember back in the day BMW claimed the SMG3 GS7S46BG could execute a gear change in 30 milliseconds? Anyone timed a no lift shift in S6? It isn't 30 msec. I was excited to see Randy's datalogs showing the ignition timing cuts there are made during a shift at WOT. This is the clearest indicator, looking at the duration of that cut. I still think there is room for improvement, but with the obvious analysis and consideration of durability and longevity.

The change Randy is testing, I'm very satisfied with, but waiting for him to accumulate some miles and incorporate his input before I make it available to everyone. Stay tuned, more to follow.


wow, Mr Jim, I just want to say, I never liked reading, but I can read your 4000+ posts all day long. I wonder how you possibly could have figured all this out about the e60 m5... so many different things and you know them down to the last bit.... Amazing!

This forum is blessed to have you.
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post #29 of 330 Old 15th July 2016, 05:35 PM
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All I could say is I'm loving my fa tune and I think Jim is giving to much info to the competitors. He has done something here that known of the 3 other tune I've tried has done. Like I said before he has tuned this car that even driving in traffic is enjoyable and my wife and mom could drive it. If I ever let them lol.
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post #30 of 330 Old 15th July 2016, 06:23 PM
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Regarding: "I think Jim is giving to much info to the competitors."

I cannot speak for Jim

But a friend of mine when he was still in the early stages of his business put all his CAD files of his innovative product on his website.

I told him, none of his competitors do this and instead guard their details like gold at Fort Knox.

The kicker was he did not even bother with getting a patent.

He now owns a 300,000 sq ft factory producing this product even though it was copied many times over by competitors,

His Customer base of highly educated professionals made him the preferred provider regardless; I think in some part due to the transparency of information and obvious expertise that none of the other websites displayed.

He welcomed others to copy since it put many more companies out there to expand the market for this relatively small market share product (less than 1%) which he did not have the resources to do on his own.

His openness and eagerness to be the premiere solution provider has served him well

Last edited by ticat928; 15th July 2016 at 06:25 PM.
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