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Yellow Cog & Red Cog of Death Occurring at 86,900 Miles on my M5

10K views 46 replies 12 participants last post by  g4orce 
#1 · (Edited)
I've browsed the forum for months now and about a month or two ago, I had the clutch, flywheel, and slave cylinder replaced on my 2006 BMW M5 SMG. In addition to that, I had them replace the hydraulic unit motor as preventive maintenance.

Well, 1500 miles later and now I have the yellow cog and red cog of death occurring.

It started today while I was making a quick run to the store. Both the red and yellow cogs occurred, transmission fault, and the car was placed into limp mode. I sat there for a few minutes and then, like magic, it disappeared. So, I thought, maybe a glitch occurred.

So I drove about another mile and then it happened again. This time, I couldn't get the car out of limp mode and it wouldn't go away. Fortunately, I was only two miles away from my home, and after much difficulties getting the car home (delayed shifting, seemed like the clutch wasn't engaging, very jerky), they went away again. Then I became a bit adventurous. I decided to get the battery and alternator tested; both were fine. That wasn't what I wanted to hear, as I would much rather have a sad battery than a failing smg pump...

I then took the car on a small drive and was unable to replicate the cogs. The car shifted and drove, perfectly. I even floored the car and abused it, which I don't normally do. Still, no cogs. I returned home and parked it in the garage.

About 30 minutes ago, I ran to Walmart to get some envelopes... and I made it there without any difficulties. However, on the way home... a different story. The cogs came and disappeared in a matter of seconds. I made it home and parked in the garage... and that's where my beast is now.

Any ideas? Clutch position sensor? Crankshaft sensor? SMG Pump? I've put over $10,000 into the car this year and I am starting to hate my M5. I've had problem after problem and there doesn't seem to be an end. I thought that after getting the clutch, flywheel, slave cylinder, and SMG pump motor replaced, I would be good for at least 5,000 miles. But, nope.

I am going to have my mechanic scan the codes tomorrow and see what's up... given my luck, I'm expecting the worst.
 

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#2 ·
Did you replace the clutch position sensor on the clutch change ??? All clutch jobs we have done we replace that sensor, and the slave cyld too. Just easy since you have it apart. The scan should tell you what is going on, but at 89K, and if it has the original clutch pos sensor, I would start there. They are about 350 bucks if I remember right, and its not that bad to change out. Codes should get you pointed down the right path, but it sounds like the clutch is not in the position the SMG thinks it is in. How many miles do you have on the new clutch ?
 
#4 ·
Sounds like "them" (dealer/indy?) that did the clutch, etc. did not do a thorough enough job of making sure the SMG is operating within specs, if within a month or two you are having these problems. Hopefully, there is some warranty on the work that was done.
 
#5 · (Edited)
@SilberGrauE60: You think that's the case? I've gone over 1500 miles, I think closer to 2000 miles and I haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary since the work was done. Though, they did have trouble during the clutch adaptation and had to drop the tranny again and replace the slave cylinder to get everything working.

@Eviltwin: I replaced clutch, flywheel, smg unit motor, and slave cylinder about 2000 miles ago. I was going to replace the clutch position sensor... then I thought, maybe this won't go out.

How much do you think replacing the clutch position sensor will cost? Part is around $350, how many hours of labor? Does the transmission need to be dropped again? Thanks guys!
 
#8 ·
@SilberGrauE60: You think that's the case? I've gone over 1500 miles, I think closer to 2000 miles and I haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary since the work was done. Though, they did have trouble during the clutch adaptation and had to drop the tranny again and replace the slave cylinder to get everything working.
Look at the terms on your invoice regarding warranty/guarantee on the work they did. I do not think 2,000 miles/2 months is too late to have them correct a job that they should have got right the first time.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Okay, so I picked up the car today... they weren't able to pinpoint the exact problem.

2B59 = coolant thermostat monitoring, intermittent
510E = PLCD sensor for clutch position
510D = PLCD sensor for clutch position
4FA0 = clutch (actuation position deviation)

They want to charge $875 for replacing the thermostat??

Any ideas? They let me bring it home to drive it and see if the codes come back.
 
#13 ·
Unreal. 510d and 510e are 100% a PLCD failure. They indicate a loss of signal from the primary and secondary sensors in the PLCD. This causes the 4FA0 since the SMG module can't determine clutch position. It's usually an intermittent failure and no mode of failure has been pinpointed yet.

350 for a PLCD and 3 hours labor.
 
#15 ·
I had my tstat replaced under CPO and the job would have cost nearly 1K. The labor is the killer since its a bit buried under the front of the plastic intake chambers.

You could do it yourself or go to an indy shop...


Why did they want to replace the tstat? Are you getting an increased emissions warning?
 
#16 ·
Its about 4.5 hours when I did one last month. But I am a bit slow, because I usually stand there for a few 45 mins in awe of the car and the engineering that went into these machines....:)

It should run you about 350, and the your guy should have replaced it when he did the slave. My rule is when you have it open, replace everything. 350 is cheap insurance, and gets everything back to new.

Once you pull the codes, and if your guy is smart, he should be able to put two and two together.

While the trans was down, did you also change out the fluid in the trans, and do a a Hyd oil swap since you had out the pump ??

Let us know what you find, and ECS has the sensor in stock if you need one ASAP.

Good luck !
 
#17 ·
They want to replace the thermostat because it has been throwing codes intermittently over the past few months; and they said that it could be the reason it went into kimp mode. Personally I don't think the shop knows what they are talking about. I'm going to go to another shop.

Indy wants to charge over $800 for thermostat.

Not yet sure about the clutch sensor
 
#18 ·
It looks like they might be a little high. I was quoted 450 to do mine last year at the dealer, but I replaced my T-Stat in about 2.5 hours. The T-Stat with O-Rings was about 80 bucks at my local dealer, and about 30 for the blue stuff !! (That put more money in the fuel fund.......)
Most likely your T-Stat is stuck open, and the engine is not heating up quick enough, thus throwing the code. I do not think it should go into Limp mode, but just throw the Increased Emissions, and give you the Check Engine light. If this is the same shop that did your clutch, you might want to shop around some. They should have advised you to change the PLCD sensor, and if they changed the slave cyld, it makes no sense not to, since the unit was apart.
If you are handy with tools, there is a good write up in the DYI section on changing the T-Stat
 
#19 · (Edited)
It's a different shop, because the last shop had problems with the clutch adaption because they didn't tell me to replace the slave cyllinder and it ended up causing the adaption process to fail. They even took it to the bmw dealership to figure out the problem.

One problem is I'm in Richmond and the M5 is super rare here- no shop I've been to seems to know this car.

Unfortunately, though, I'm ready to sell my M5 and move on. I've put over $10,000 into it this year, half the value of the car now according to KBB. It's becoming a money pit. I haven't even had the SMG pump fail yet and I know that's soon to come :/
 
#36 · (Edited)
RRT Racing in Dulles does great work, all they do it work on BMWs, check them out. Ask for Alex, Wayne or Mike. Worth the trip up from Richmond. They did my headers a few months ago and most of my friends use them. Great bunch of guys who know what they are doing.



These guys are great as well! Exceptionally clean shop and knowledge about our cars.
 
#23 ·
Many shops are like that. Mostly because people drag in cheap parts, and then complain when they fail. That is why when I bought the car, I made the choice to invest in tools and the software to work on this machine myself. I learn, and keep the overall cost down, which makes the ownership must more enjoyable for me. Too bad your not in Oklahoma, we have a lot of fun working on these beasts..
 
#24 ·
I'm about to be doing a clutch job soon from an indy shop who specializes in german cars, and i brought up replacing slave cylinder and a couple other parts while they were in there and they told me that if its not having issues to leave them alone. for instance they told me that if i replace the slave cylinder, then i have to replace master cylinder because you can never get it to bleed right. is that true? they told me I'm better off leaving it alone. I'm at 71k miles. (sorry don't mean to thread jack)
 
#27 ·
Complete indication they have no clue how the SMG works. There is no master cylinder and the slave is a dual opposing piston arrangement that automatically bleeds itself.

Since the slave retention nuts are inside the bell housing, you have to drop the transmission again to change it when it fails. Change it now and don't fret failing adaptation later due to insufficient piston movement.
 
#25 ·
I had no problems with my slave cylinder prior to clutch replacement but as soon as that clutch was replaced, it needed to be replaced.

There's a bulletin I think that says you should replace that when doing a clutch job. Master cylinder doesn't need to be replaced.
 
#28 ·
What jcolley said. And if you want to see the list of recommended parts to change during a SMG clutch job just check my link a few posts above. It cost me about $4,000 total but it was well worth it for the piece of mind, I know my trans is basically back to new now and should last 5-6 more years.
 
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