Engine Gone at 89K Miles :(

cleoent · Apr 16, 2013

Holy **** that sucks

My vanos went out a few weeks back and it would seem it is all too common for its failure to grenade the entire engine. In my case, I was fortunate enough that there were no issues. Are you still stuck with paying stevens creek bmw for $2100 bucks for a bogus repair?

EuroCarFan Discussion starter · Apr 16, 2013

cleoent said:
Holy **** that sucks

My vanos went out a few weeks back and it would seem it is all too common for its failure to grenade the entire engine. In my case, I was fortunate enough that there were no issues. Are you still stuck with paying stevens creek bmw for $2100 bucks for a bogus repair?

No, that was the initial diagnosis and since they discovered the metal shavings, they didn't bother changing the solenoids.

alibo70 said:
The VANOS codes lead me to believe the high pressure oil pump failed. Did you do many launch controls on the car?

I've only tried launch control 3 times. Once when my car was stock and twice when I got the euro SMG tune.

theunderlord said:
Re: cleaning the oil cooler, I would soak it in a bucket of solvent and rinse though until no oily solvent comes out.

Thanks for the suggestion.

durango099 · Apr 16, 2013

EuroCarFan said:
Some of you know my car broke down on the way to San Luis Obispo for ECFest.

That sucks - Best of luck with the swap and getting your beast on the rode again.

alibo70 · Apr 16, 2013

The VANOS codes lead me to believe the high pressure oil pump failed. Did you do many launch controls on the car?

theunderlord · Apr 16, 2013

Re: cleaning the oil cooler, I would soak it in a bucket of solvent and rinse though until no oily solvent comes out.

cleoent · Apr 16, 2013

How quickly and how many times have they blamed your mods for the blown up engine?

EuroCarFan Discussion starter · Apr 16, 2013

They never brought my mods up as an issue. Personally, all my mods are just bolt-ons and even if you have more extensive upgrades like an SC or turbo, if you don't push the car and also take good preventative maintenance, the engine shouldn't fail this early.

ohmy5 said:
Are you having the dealer put the new engine you got from Troy in or working with an indy shop?

I'm having the work done at Sonic Motorsport. The BMW master tech I mentioned above works there and have done lots of engine transplants as well as G-Power SC installs.

ACG said:
About time you posted this Tony as it has been hard not saying anything myself

I wish you the best with the new heart and I know we will be speaking a lot between now and then :cheers:

Yeah it's been hard keeping this quiet all this time too but I was just waiting till I secure the deal with Troy and know the engine's on its way. Hope everything goes smoothly with the swap.

ohmy5 · Apr 16, 2013

Are you having the dealer put the new engine you got from Troy in or working with an indy shop?

ACG · Apr 16, 2013

About time you posted this Tony as it has been hard not saying anything myself

I wish you the best with the new heart and I know we will be speaking a lot between now and then :cheers:

SuckaGDog · Apr 16, 2013

Hope the repairs go quick and smoothly! As the downtime just seems longer and longer as the days goes by.

EuroCarFan Discussion starter · Apr 16, 2013

Yeah it's been 4 looooong weeks (to the day) since I last drove my car and I've been driving around in a Chrysler 200 rental this whole time. It's fine as a car and daily transport I guess but since being without the M, I've been looking around at other cars on the road and they all look like cattle to me. No spirit, no soul, just mozying (sp?) along the roads. I NEED MY BEAST BACK!!!! :crying::crying: LOL!

Mstnd · Apr 16, 2013

Good luck getting your beast back up and running!
Tapatalk 2

ACG · Apr 16, 2013

I am just glad your not selling as that was all I heard from you the first few weeks :grinyes:

EuroCarFan Discussion starter · Apr 16, 2013

Yeah that was my initial thought due to the frustration I felt at the time. I remember last year I was going to take the M on a road trip to SoCal with my son but decided last minute to take the SUV and thank God I did. The car went into limp mode and threw up a bunch of codes when my wife took it out the next day (idle actuactors were the problem). I could have been stranded hundreds of miles from home with my son. Then this happens 200 miles away. Just puts a damper on my enthusiasm for the car.

But like I said, I still love this car and just couldn't see getting rid of it, and jumping into something comparably as nice without unloading a lot more money which I need to be a lot more frugal on, especially with a second kid recently. :sad3:

ykjones · Apr 16, 2013

Hang in there Tony and you'll be up and running again soon (I know probably not soon enough). We are all behind you and wish your beast a speedy recovery. :cheers::flag:

EuroCarFan Discussion starter · Apr 16, 2013

Pic of the M5SILE when it was dropped off at Sonic. You couldn't tell it was a dud by looking at it. hahaha

cleoent · Apr 16, 2013

that car is so sexy. Good luck man, I'm sure Mark will take good care of it.

jcolley · Apr 16, 2013

So any idea as to the source of the metal? Is it possible it is only rod bearings and not the crank bearings? Might be worth sending an oil sample to Blackstone as well. It doesn't cost much and might give some indication of the extent of damage if you are interested in repairing or reselling the engine. If there are no traces of anything by babbit, a bearing swap may be all you need.

$2100 for solenoids is rape, BTW. $150 each and easy to change out.

I guess I don't understand why an oil cooler would be hard to clean out. In order to provide the minimum amount of head loss and the highest flow, most (not specifically oil) coolers and heat exchangers have walls which are as smooth as possible. So other than the multiple passes (bends) that the tubing takes, it should be completely smooth walled tubing inside to maximize mass flow rate, thereby maximizing heat transfer. q(dot) = m(dot) x specific heat capacity x (temp[inlet] - temp[outlet] ). Unless the designer is trying to go against physics, they would have made the tubing walls very smooth. What all that means is, there is no reason metal shavings would get trapped inside the cooler. I would clean it with solvent in a parts washer and try to force as much flow through it as I could to make sure any particles which may have adhered somewhere become entrained in the flow and break free.

I would be interested in your dead motor though for the right price. It would make the ultimate S85 teardown thread! However, I would still try and get the exising oil analyzed first to determine the probable extent of damage. Unless they discarded it all, there is a ton of evidince in the sample results.

EuroCarFan Discussion starter · Apr 16, 2013

jcolley said:
So any idea as to the source of the metal? Is it possible it is only rod bearings and not the crank bearings? Might be worth sending an oil sample to Blackstone as well. It doesn't cost much and might give some indication of the extent of damage if you are interested in repairing or reselling the engine. If there are no traces of anything by babbit, a bearing swap may be all you need.

$2100 for solenoids is rape, BTW. $150 each and easy to change out.

I guess I don't understand why an oil cooler would be hard to clean out. In order to provide the minimum amount of head loss and the highest flow, most (not specifically oil) coolers and heat exchangers have walls which are as smooth as possible. So other than the multiple passes (bends) that the tubing takes, it should be completely smooth walled tubing inside to maximize mass flow rate, thereby maximizing heat transfer. q(dot) = m(dot) x specific heat capacity x (temp[inlet] - temp[outlet] ). Unless the designer is trying to go against physics, they would have made the tubing walls very smooth. What all that means is, there is no reason metal shavings would get trapped inside the cooler. I would clean it with solvent in a parts washer and try to force as much flow through it as I could to make sure any particles which may have adhered somewhere become entrained in the flow and break free.

I would be interested in your dead motor though for the right price. It would make the ultimate S85 teardown thread! However, I would still try and get the exising oil analyzed first to determine the probable extent of damage. Unless they discarded it all, there is a ton of evidince in the sample results.

I actually ordered a kit from BlackStone and was going to use it to check the cleanliness of the oil cooler once it's flushed but maybe I'll use it to test the engine oil first and get another kit for the oil cooler. And speaking of the cooler, that's great info. I'm just going by what others have told me; that it's tough to clean it fully. I will ask some local shops for their opinions as well and will definitely try to flush it instead of just trashing the thing.

As for the root cause, I don't know if it's the bearings but that's what others have suggested. Hopefully the BlackStone test can provide more insight as I wasn't planning on having Mark dismantle the engine to investigate. If you're interested in the engine, make me an offer and we can go from there.

ACG said:
Tony, is Mark going to be taking the old engine apart? If he is can he take a look at the bearings and see what kind of damage was caused.

See the last paragraph in my reply to jcolley above. Unless it's something he can easily do once the engine's out then maybe but I don't want to spend anymore money then what's necessary.

MIGHTY5 said:
Sorry to hear about your engine failure Euro, are you the first owner? the mileage is just so low for this to have happened. your beast looks so nice man, love your rims too. So was it the rod bearing shavings that got into your vanos that casued the failure? did your car give any kind of indication that is was going to fail other than the fault codes, such as rough idle or wierd noises or vibrations? I wish you the best man, you handled this with much class, your definately a true enthusiast.

p.s. jcolley may be right bud.

I am the second owner. I got the car back in early 2007 when it had about 10K miles. Not sure if the previous owner beat up on the car which is why I was religious with the oil changes and such.

I'm not sure if the the shavings caused my Vanos to fail or maybe the Vanos failed and then the grinding started happening afterwards. There were no indications up to the time I got the limp mode. My car just had an oil change done 2K miles before by Dinan and they had did their routine inspection. Stevens Creek BMW also did their inspection when I had my new battery registered about 1K miles ago.

ACG · Apr 16, 2013

Tony, is Mark going to be taking the old engine apart? If he is can he take a look at the bearings and see what kind of damage was caused.

douglas_ngo · Apr 16, 2013

That's suck Tony. I was wondering what did happened to your car after your initial post a couple of weeks ago. Best of luck on the engine swap. I think you made the right decision in keeping the car. It is one of the best looking M5 on this board. Plus it is cheaper option compare to getting the F10 M5.

gjs · Apr 16, 2013

Sorry to hear about this, I bet it was the rod bearings as I have seen so many do the exact same thing. The metal from the bearings go into the solenoids and mess them up. I personally experienced this on my previous car and have seen it on a few other cars after.

Usually the initial diagnostic is the vanos as by the time the workshop/tech looks at it, the engine is now cold and the bearing noise is not present so solenoids get changed and once the engine gets warm the bearing noise is present.

well done to the tech who decided to drop the oil to take a look.

I will never own another S85 without doing rod bearings if the mileage is getting close too 80k, The cost of doing the bearings is no where near a replacement used engine with install.

My ones went at 140k and there was no warnings, I went full throttle and heard a rattle that was not supposed to be there. I pulled over to rev the car stationary and it went into limp mode with rough running. Game over!!

ideliver · Apr 16, 2013

gjs said:
I bet it was the rod bearings as I have seen so many do the exact same thing. The metal from the bearings go into the solenoids and mess them up. I will never own another S85 without doing rod bearings if the mileage is getting close too 80k, The cost of doing the bearings is no where near a replacement used engine with install.

My ones went at 140k and there was no warnings

Agreed...but curious how you come to the suggestion as 80K for bearing replacement?

MIGHTY5 · Apr 16, 2013

Sorry to hear about your engine failure Euro, are you the first owner? the mileage is just so low for this to have happened. your beast looks so nice man, love your rims too. So was it the rod bearing shavings that got into your vanos that casued the failure? did your car give any kind of indication that is was going to fail other than the fault codes, such as rough idle or wierd noises or vibrations? I wish you the best man, you handled this with much class, your definately a true enthusiast.

p.s. jcolley may be right bud.

ACG · Apr 16, 2013

I don't think there is really a specific number as people drive their cars in different manners, I doubt if you can just put a finger on a number and say this is the time to change out the bearings as that would be way to simple.

I don't think Tony had any indications whatsoever that this was going to happen.

MIGHTY5 · Apr 16, 2013

yeah that sucks man it just creeps right up on you it seems. I agree Paul, it seems there is no real way to know if they need to be changed out or not without metal shavings being present in the oil in which case maybe too late. As far as preventative maintenece it would seem 75k to 80k range would be a good time to change them if you like to hit redline with settings at full power often, and maybe even sooner if your tracking your car, but then again, you get those guys who have over 100k with zero issues who track their cars so what the heck?...what do you guys think a decent price would be to have your bearing rods simply inspected? It seems like if your inspecting them since your there might as well just change em?

jcolley · Apr 16, 2013

As far as failure mode goes, since the VANOS high pressure pump only provides oil to the VANOS solenoids and all lubrication of the bearings comes from the main oil pump, I can't see how the solenoids or any other VANOS component could cause the suspected bearing failure.

The opposite though, makes sense. Any babbit material which is passed to the VANOS high pressure pump would then be passed to the VANOS operating units. There are some small filters/strainers in each operating unit according to something I read somewhere, but likely aren't small enough micron rating to prevent foreign materail from getting to the solenoids. There is a reference in TIS/ISTA when running the VANOS performance test which mentions swarf as a possible cause of solenoid performance degradation. It goes on to say that the cause of the swarf should be investigated, etc.

It sort of makes you wonder if this isn't the cause of the common failures of high pressure pumps as well. I have to go look at the docs again, but I think the high pressure pumps picks up from the low pressure line before the oil has gone to the filter. Given the tight tolerances that would be required of a >1500psi system, it seems you would design it to pick up the supply oil from some point after the filter. It sure as hell would have made a lot easier for maintenance if the high pressure pump were belt driven and external to the engine. All speculation though.

Glad to hear you are sticking with the car though. As our cars age, we all get to deal with more and more of this sort of thing. Best of luck in getting the new engine installed without too much hassle. Friends don't let friends sell their M5s.

cleoent · Apr 16, 2013

a vanos failure could lead to improper timing and all sorts of other issues that could cause metal shavings in the oil. Lets not all jump to conclusions that the metal in his oil was that of rod bearings or anything else. That's silly.

randywei · Apr 16, 2013

Glad you're keeping the car, Tony. All will be well again soon. :M5thumbs:

Once your car is back up and running I think it's time you arrange another local NorCal meet :1:

ACG · Apr 16, 2013

I heard it was not as expensive as it sounds but fortunately I had my engine build planned over 6 months ago so I was planning on changing mine out anyways but let's see what Blackstone labs comes back with and move on from there.

Nvable · Apr 16, 2013

GOOD LUCK (in the accent from the guy in the movie Taken)

MIGHTY5 · Apr 16, 2013

"Epidemic" lol funny choice of words man your totally meant to be a doctor. So Tony, sorry if im being kinda redundant amigo but your vanos wasnt any louder than normal prior to its failure? Dinan changed your oil im sure they would have noticed metal shavings...huh so in 2,000mi the bearings (yet to be determined) started to fail causing you engine damage. I think thats a wise choice going thru blackstone to get an idea what the heck happened. Man i really wish you the best and may your new engine last you forever.

EuroCarFan Discussion starter · Apr 16, 2013

I didn't hear anything out of the ordinary up to that point. Not sure if Dinan checked the oil for shavings when they changed it but if it was that bad already at that time then they probably would have noticed. Or they might have heard strange noises when they did their "free multi-point inspection", same with Stevens Creek. That said, when Joe and I took the car from Coast, we did hear a slight knocking noise which seemed like it was coming from the Vanos units.

Engine Gone at 89K Miles :(

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