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6sp Manual or 7sp SMG

26K views 44 replies 25 participants last post by  sem21 
#1 · (Edited)
Up to last week, I was not aware that M5's came in manual. When I found out I was ecstatic...With that said, which one do you suggest?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com
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I've never own a manual, but I can drive one. My previous car - I drove it a lot in tiptronic mode which is kind of similar to the SMG.<o:p></o:p>
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The BMW sales guys, said a lot of M5 owners have issues driving the SMG in manual mode. I found that kinda ridiculous...<o:p></o:p>
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Anyway, manual or SMG? Does having one less gear in manual make a difference?<o:p></o:p>
 
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#2 ·
TIPTRONIC IS NOTTTTT AT ALL SIMILAR TO SMG. SMG is known to be faster than 6 speed. Test drive the both and you'll find out for yourself what you like best.
 
#27 ·
I don't know what you are referring to, I also test drove a 550i SMG and don't see what the big difference is between SMG and tiptronic. Except my TT is up for gear increase and BMW is down for increase...Aside from that it was a breeze..A VERY GOOD breeze as that..
 
#5 ·
From what I have heard, the 6 speed e60 M5 is slower than the smg through the 1/4 mile by almost a full second.

IIRC, the traction control cannot be fully disengaged in the 6 speed m5. It can be fully disengaged in SMG, giving full use of the power available.

I would have gone with the 6 speed if it were not for this issue. Losing a full second in the 1/4 is not worth it. Plus, you can drive the smg like a stick, and its comfortable :)
 
#6 ·
Search the board. This is all incorrect. 3 years ago when the 6MT was first out, DSC wasn't able to be turned off, but BMW came out with a s/w update to fix that on the early ones, and then a production line change fixed it from the factory.

With DSC off, the 6MT car (when driven by a "real" driver) is just barely slower in the SMG car assuming that the SMG driver is just as much of an expert at launching the SMG car. The 1/4 is less than 0.2 seconds different between the two cars assuming they both get perfect launches. There are some speed intervals where the 6MT car is faster -- Gustav's airfield videos soon to come will show that apparently.
 
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#7 ·
The official time difference is half a second slower in the quarter mile for the six speed...WHO CARES. Unless you will drag race the car regulary daily driving pleasure or Fahrvergnuegen is more important. I always have manual transmissions and the one in my E60 is the best one to date.
 
#8 ·
The "official time" difference? From what source? If this is referring the C&D tests, recall that the 6MT they tested was an early one when DSC wasn't able to be turned fully off. This significantly affected launching and acceleration in addition to hampering skidpad and handling tests. With a "real" driver in the 6MT car, the two cars are within 0.25 or less seconds at the strip.
 
#9 ·
Does it really make any sense to put a stick in a boat??? SMG hands down for a 4300 lb car.
 
#11 ·
This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. My colleague's 4runner is stick shift and close to 4000 lbs and I'd take it in a heart beat. I like driving stick. I like the ability to slip the clutch more or less at each stop light without going and fiddling with the buttons every time. I like the satisfaction I get when I nail a 4-2 downshift coming through a turn.

I'm not saying SMG is not right for you, I'm just saying there's room for a difference of opinion and to base that opinion on the weight of the car is absurd.
 
#15 ·
Launching video of 6MT -- ~4000rpm is the sweet spot apparently for the E60. This is MUCH different car to launch than the E39 M5 (which requires you to launch ~2000rpm and hook up hard to get the best times) since on the E60 you really need the revs to get the torque up enough to get the best launch.

I'm guessing a "decent driver" in a 6MT car will out launch the vast majority of SMG drivers. I know there are some guys on the board who know how to launch hard in S6 mode, back off the throttle, modulate wheelspin and get a decent 60' time -- I'm just saying that the "typical" SMG E60 M5 driver doesn't have such skills and hasn't practiced it a couple hundred times at the strip with the clock as judge. ;) :)

The big question is "how long does the 6MT clutch last"? :) :) In the E39 with the huge low end torque/power, many mildly experienced people have slipped their way to a toasted clutch over the years, and BMW replaced a ton of them under warranty and good will.

Regards,
Chuck
 
#18 ·
To the OP, do not be fooled into thinking that SMG is like a Tiptronic by the fact that SMG has manual and automatic modes. Mechanically, its basically a manual transmission with a computer operating the clutch. While you don't get the feeling of the third pedal, you can feel the clutch engage and disengage on shifts. I personally would get SMG on the M5, as it was designed around it and really suits the car fantastically. Not saying one transmission is better than the other...just that SMG is best for the M5. If this were an E46 M3 you were talking about, I'd say 6 speed all the way



afc1
 
#20 ·
I can see the allure of a proper 6 speed in the m5, it would be sort of a contrast, I mean it literally might be one of the longest, biggest sedans on the road that can have manual 6 pseed, sort of a contrast.

OP just test drive either until you decide, its really not a question that anyone else should ever answer for you, as its going to be completely different with either one.

Personally, the M5 to me is a DD, grocery getter, commuter car, its not by any means a sport car, it is sporty, but nowehere near a sport car, and to try and drive it like one, imo, is rewarding, but like trying to dance fast with a really fat girl. Which is fun in its own way, but for me, not for more than a few minutes.
 
#21 · (Edited)
Personally, the M5 to me is a DD, grocery getter, commuter car, its not by any means a sport car, it is sporty, but nowehere near a sport car, and to try and drive it like one, imo, is rewarding, but like trying to dance fast with a really fat girl. Which is fun in its own way, but for me, not for more than a few minutes.
Sorry, but you're describing a 535, not an M5.

DB
 
#32 ·
Factor in SMG reliability into your equation along with current/existing warranty. Some of the guys on here have had problems with SMG in one form or another, some have not. I haven't seen much of anything with problems with a 6MT on here?? :3:

I test drove both and prefer the 6MT. There is something appealing getting all of my limbs coordinated and involved as opposed to just my hands/fingers and right foot.

As most say it is personal preference for sure.

I would bet that IF I had the SMG I would probably love and enjoy the car just the same. BUT, then my wife would be able to drive it too...:rolleyes:
 
#33 · (Edited)
Factor in SMG reliability into your equation along with current/existing warranty. Some of the guys on here have had problems with SMG in one form or another, some have not. I haven't seen much of anything with problems with a 6MT on here?? :3:

I test drove both and prefer the 6MT. There is something appealing getting all of my limbs coordinated and involved as opposed to just my hands/fingers and right foot.

As most say it is personal preference for sure.

I would bet that IF I had the SMG I would probably love and enjoy the car just the same. BUT, then my wife would be able to drive it too...:rolleyes:
Exactly how I feel, personally I wanted to be rewarded for a good heel and toe manuever or punised for missing a gear or doing something noobish! Besides I have a fully loaded AT G35 C, with after market parts that produces well over 300 hp as my DD.
 
#36 ·
Agreed. As I have mentioned previously, I had a 6-speed and now how a SMG. I could make arguements for both. When I had my 6-speed I lived in FL and worked 3 miles from the office and hardly drove on long distances. Now I live in NJ and work in NYC and my M5 is not my DD. It is typically used on road trips. I love the SMG on the highway. There is nothing better than merging onto the highway taking 1st high on the rev band and then shifting to 2nd and taking second to 7+ RPM. Shifts are sooo fast. But I must admit, sometimes I am driving and thinking it would be really fun to have a 3rd pedal. So, you the prospective owner, who needs to drive the car, need to make the decision.

And to clarifiy, as I have seen this posted in many, many threads incorrectly, DSC CAN BE TURNED OFF IN 6 SPEED CARS. BMW BEGAN RETRO-FITTING THE 6 SPEEDS CARS YEARS AGO AND THE 6 SPEEDS MADE IN THE LAST FEW YEARS AUTOMATICALLY INLCUDE(D) DSC OFF WITH THE CAR. THIS IS FACT!
 
#38 ·
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As you can see here the difference isnt huge performance wise , so basically choose whatever you think feels the best
 
#41 ·
There is an overheating issue with the 6sp manual transmission that I'm surprised has not been mentioned by anyone else on this thread. There are several threads on this topic from late last year, but in short, if you plan to track the M5 at all, the 6sp manual is not up to the task. As reported by Edmunds in their '08 6sp M5 review, and experienced by several on this board, including myself, after a few minutes of "spirited" driving, the 6sp manual transmission overheats and reduces the redline on the car down to as low as 4,500 rpm. Here is a link to one of the threads. If you do a search on "transmission overheat" you will find a few more.

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e6...9-e60-m5-manual-transmission-overheating.html

Anyway, I'm a huge 6sp manual fan and I loved the 6sp in my '07 M5 until. . . I started tracking the car. On the track, the 6sp manual can not make it more than 10 to 15 min into a track session without the transmission overheating and forcing you to pit. This put a major dent in my appeciation of a otherwise fabulous car. As you'll see in the above thread, I bumped the issue as far up within BMW as I could and was rebuffed at every turn and threatened with voided warranty, even though there was an awareness of the issue within BMW as I was told by instructors at the BMW performance school of an similar experience that BMW had with a demo session of the 6sp M6.

To see it firsthand, here's another link to a thread with a couple videos where you can see the overheating warning come up on my Nav at like 8 min and 6 min into track sessions at Daytona.

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e6...ple-more-daytona-car-videos-dinan-e60-m5.html

Basically then, if you plan to track the car at all, go with SMG or you will be disappointed as soon your first track session is cut short. :grrrr: If you don't plan to track the car, then drive both for extended test drives and pick the one you like the best for the kind of driving you will be doing.

Just my $0.02

Cheers.
 
#43 ·
Actually, I feel it is quite fair and I stand by my comments after 2 1/2 years of track experience with this issue as well as consistent experiences from others who have tracked their car in similar situations. In the previous thread, those that had not seen the issue had not tracked their car in an HPDE event.

It is not shifting at redline that will cause the issue but sustained operation (10 - 15 minutes) at or near redline like occurs on a road race course during an HPDE event. You will not experience the issue on a drag strip or autocross type situation as the time at redline is not sufficiently sustained. However, if you drive your car at all agressively at an HPDE event, you will experience the transmission temperature increasing warning and the reduction of your redline. It first happened to me when I was still in the Green (novice) HPDE group and became worse and worse as I moved up in skill and speed to the point where as an instuctor and running in the Black or Red groups, the car would last only 8 to 10 minutes until the warning came up and at worst, only 6.5 minutes as shown in one of my Daytona videos.

Of course, YMMV, but after my experience and those of otheres, including BMW performance school instuctors, I'm pretty clear that this is a real issue with the 6sp manual V10 M5's and M6's and certainly something to consider when making the decision between stick and SMG.

Just for reference, here are a couple other threads on the topic as well as the Edmund's 2008 review documenting the issue:

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60-m5-e61-m5-touring-discussion/116911-tracked-my-08-m5-6spd-transmission-overheating-after-thoughts.html

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60-m5-e61-m5-touring-discussion/143799-differential-transmission-overheat.html

http://www.edmunds.com/bmw/m5/2008/review.html?mktcat=enabler&AID=10364102&PID=3781831&kw=N&synpartner=edmunds&mktid=cj260233
 
#44 ·
This problem is likely easily solved with a minor effort. BMW incorporated a temp sensor in the transmission and then apparently selected an extremely conservative threshold level. In the meantime, using essentially the same transmission for the E9x M3, they incorporated a fluid cooler in that car. However, the same basic tranny was used in the E39 M5, and we have a decade+ of experience there with some very heavily modified M5s including Dinan S3's with 620+hp, D/A SC M5s with 700whp, many Dinan S2s with 470hp, lots and lots of road race track experience, etc, and there has been NO issue with transmission failures of any significance.

Hence it is perplexing why BMW chose what appears to be a super low limit trigger on this sensor polling. Similar to how it was so perplexing as to why early cars couldn't disable DSC fully. BMW's word on that was something to do with concern with wheel hop during burnouts, but my take is that they were under extreme pressure to not have another "E39 M5" clutch experience. It wouldn't surprise me if they did both of these measures in a crude attempt to limit their warranty/goodwill clutch replacement costs. This temp limit makes no sense in light of the real world experience with this transmission for many years.

The minor effort is simply intervening in the sensor output. It is a cheap sensor, so it might be as simple as adding resistance to the circuit. In any event, it doesn't look like rocket science to make this "created problem" go away discretely.

Chuck
 
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