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Old 13th May 2009, 06:13   #81
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Rereading the Roundel article on the AA S65 supercharged unit, a couple of items caught my attention.

The only performance specs are power numbers at the flywheel, 628 hp @ 8,300 and 450 ft-lb @ 6,000, running 6.5 psi of boost, high flow cats and exhaust. Subtract 20% for powertrain loss and the numbers are 502 hp and 360 ft-lb. Compared to the stock 420 hp @ 8,300 and 295 @ 3,900 ft-lb, approximately a 20-22% gain, including the cats and exhaust.

Both the Roundel reviewer and a professional driver said the extra power came on at 5,000 rpm and higher. Seems to me you don’t get much additional power for the money, especially at lower rpm, where it’s needed most.

No other performance specs included.

When evaluating aftermarket units and claims, don’t rely on dyno numbers only. You want to see real world 0-60, 0-100 and 1/4 mile times at a minimum. Also what gas octane was used? From another thread, our S85s really need 95 Research Octane for full power, if you force feed your beast, you may need 100 octane racing gas, otherwise the OBD will simply dial back the timing and power. You might check the price and closest source of this fuel.

Concerning the G-POWER site, I see no clarification of whether the power increases are gross (at the flywheel) or net (at the tires.) The systems also include modified intake, electronics and exhaust, wonder how much of the increase is from the blower alone.

No mention of warranty I could find, although I don’t read German.

They also state, “Electronics: Custom made software for the standard BMW engine and SMG- transmission electronic control unit (BMW OBD stays completely untouched)”, which means they use a piggy-back controller, which sends BMW’s OBD erroneous information, instead of rewriting the actual BMW code. This is a band-aid approach, the external controller for example, tells the OBD that the engine isn’t getting enough fuel or air, when it actually is, so it will direct the injectors to supply more. On the 335i, in order to raise power, piggy-back units tell the OBDs that the engine is getting less boost than it actually is. IMO, much better to actually rewrite the OBD’s code or replace the OE unit with a complete replacement, as in racing applications.

There is one board member who drove a G-Powered M5 in Germany. Afterwords he bought a Dinan Stroker Motor instead.

Another board member tried a supercharger for his M3 (non-V8) and couldn't get anywhere close to the advertised claims. He switched to a twin turbo unit, which delivered "the goods". Damn fast M3....

I encourage both of them to share their stories and impressions of aftermarket gear.
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Old 13th May 2009, 07:19   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan Thomas View Post
The only performance specs are power numbers at the flywheel, 628 hp @ 8,300 and 450 ft-lb @ 6,000, running 6.5 psi of boost, high flow cats and exhaust. Subtract 20% for powertrain loss and the numbers are 502 hp and 360 ft-lb. Compared to the stock 420 hp @ 8,300 and 295 @ 3,900 ft-lb, approximately a 20-22% gain, including the cats and exhaust.
You are comparing whp (502) to crank hp (420). It should be 628 vs 420 which is about a 50% gain.
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Old 13th May 2009, 07:32   #83
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you dont need race gas with low boost, a good charge cooler (they said air-water cooler) and proper tuning... water/meth wouldnt hurt though...lol
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Old 13th May 2009, 07:45   #84
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Just thought I would throw in my .02 on this discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan Thomas View Post
Rereading the Roundel article on the AA S65 supercharged unit, a couple of items caught my attention.

The only performance specs are power numbers at the flywheel, 628 hp @ 8,300 and 450 ft-lb @ 6,000, running 6.5 psi of boost, high flow cats and exhaust. Subtract 20% for powertrain loss and the numbers are 502 hp and 360 ft-lb. Compared to the stock 420 hp @ 8,300 and 295 @ 3,900 ft-lb, approximately a 20-22% gain, including the cats and exhaust.
20% drivetrain loss is excessive in our SMG cars. More like 15-17%. Also, depending on the blower used the torque will come on differently. Roots type blowers have a different power curve than centrifugal. Also, since superchargers build boost as a function of crank speed (RPM), there is a direct correlation between peak boost and peak RPM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan Thomas View Post
Concerning the G-POWER site, I see no clarification of whether the power increases are gross (at the flywheel) or net (at the tires.) The systems also include modified intake, electronics and exhaust, wonder how much of the increase is from the blower alone.
G-Power only quotes flywheel hp. The blower is the only real gain in HP from G-Power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan Thomas View Post
No mention of warranty I could find, although I don’t read German.
When I visited their offices and drove in their supercharged M5 they offered a warranty to european customers (spring '08). They may have a USA warranty now that they have resellers in California...not sure yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan Thomas View Post
They also state, “Electronics: Custom made software for the standard BMW engine and SMG- transmission electronic control unit (BMW OBD stays completely untouched)”, which means they use a piggy-back controller, which sends BMW’s OBD erroneous information, instead of rewriting the actual BMW code. This is a band-aid approach, the external controller for example, tells the OBD that the engine isn’t getting enough fuel or air, when it actually is, so it will direct the injectors to supply more. On the 335i, in order to raise power, piggy-back units tell the OBDs that the engine is getting less boost than it actually is. IMO, much better to actually rewrite the OBD’s code or replace the OE unit with a complete replacement, as in racing applications.
They do use a piggy back unit, but I believe it operates the other way around. The piggy back unit takes the inputs from the stock BMW DME and then controls the "outputs" (i.e. - fuel output via injectors, etc.). This is a common approach in cars which are not FI cars from factory. It's not uncomon to see AEM or even better units like Motec that are very customizable and expensive. Most stock DME's do not offer the capabilities needed to handled the additional maps for boost and load for example. Those types of capabilities need to be inherent in the DME or you'll need to use a piggy back unit.

Also, you can't replace the BMW DME entirely as it's too "wired" into the other functions of the CAN bus. I looked into it when researching my custom twin turbo setup in Dallas. Not pretty, nor worth the undertaking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan Thomas View Post
There is one board member who drove a G-Powered M5 in Germany. Afterwords he bought a Dinan Stroker Motor instead.
Right on That was me. I went with the stroker because of 1) Warranty (they did not offer a warranty to North American customers at the time), and 2) price (they were very "proud" of their solution...which I think they have a reality check now based on the ebay pricing I've seen).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan Thomas View Post
Another board member tried a supercharger for his M3 (non-V8) and couldn't get anywhere close to the advertised claims. He switched to a twin turbo unit, which delivered "the goods". Damn fast M3....
That was RaceMX-M3 from this board and he went with an HPF Stage 2.5 which is a single turbo.

I'm fairly confident our blocks can handle a modest 5 pounds of boost, especially since the peak boost level will only be reached momentarily at near peak RPM. Nobody drives constant at peak RPM...you shift the gears a few hundred RPM before redline so you'd only have max boost for a split second.

A turbo application is different and can produce max boost much lower in the RPM band and then hold it at max boost for a long portion of the power band. This is what is so attractive about the turbo application and why it would definitely require lower cylinder compression and forged pistons (and other internals).

Just my thoughts.

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Old 13th May 2009, 18:16   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan Thomas
The only performance specs are power numbers at the flywheel, 628 hp @ 8,300 and 450 ft-lb @ 6,000, running 6.5 psi of boost, high flow cats and exhaust. Subtract 20% for powertrain loss and the numbers are 502 hp and 360 ft-lb. Compared to the stock 420 hp @ 8,300 and 295 @ 3,900 ft-lb, approximately a 20-22% gain, including the cats and exhaust.
Quote:
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You are comparing whp (502) to crank hp (420). It should be 628 vs 420 which is about a 50% gain.
My original numbers were slightly off, however you misread my post. The Roundel article stated 628 hp @ 8,300 at the flywheel, minus 20% (my est.) powertrain loss of ~20% = 502.40 hp at the wheels (est. SAE net).

Sept. 2007 C&D states the M3 delivering 414 @ 8300 rpm (SAE net). (The 420 hp was from a web source.)

The difference between 502.40 and 414 is 17.60%.

Roundel quotes 450 ft-lb @ 6,000 (flywheel) minus 20% (est) = 360 ft-lb (est. SAE net) vs Sept. 2007 C&D 295 lb-ft @ 3900 rpm (SAE net).

The difference between 360 (est) vs 295 (actual) = 18.06%.

IMO considering the aftermarket intake and exhaust changes, the power gains are modest. Also notice the RPM where the two engines are delivering max torque, 6,000 vs 3,900 rpm.

Most tech articles I've read suggest a power train power loss of 20-25%.
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Old 13th May 2009, 19:04   #86
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I think you're misunderstanding the 420 vs 414 numbers for the M3. Both are at the flywheel. The 420 is the European measurement for brake hp and the 414 is the conversion to the American SAE standard. The "net" term does not mean it's at the wheels so you'd have to take the same drivetrain loss of ~20% (using your example) from the 414 and bring that down to 331 rwhp and then compare that to the 502 rwhp from the AA upgrade. Comparing those two numbers at the wheels still give a 50% increase in power.
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Old 13th May 2009, 19:36   #87
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I am interested if this can be done for 10-15k
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Old 13th May 2009, 19:52   #88
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The average drivetrain loss we see on all stock S85's is 17%. Stock rated @ 507flywheel and dynojet figures averaging between 418-420whp.

The reason for the max torque moving up the rpm band so far is for several different reasons. One of them being the parasitic drag from adding the supercharger, in some cases causing losses in power over stock at lower rpms before you actually see an increase in power. Simply put, it takes power to make power with a supercharger. One of the reasons why supercharging is such a big thing with high compression late model BMW M-Power Engines, is because you don't want to much boost to soon with 12:1 compression. Yes, you can pull out ignition timing, but at what expense? Too much ignition timing retard no only kills power and negates the whole premise of FI, but also pulling out too much timing causes EGT's to skyrocket resulting in blown headgaskets, egg shaped cylinders, etc. This is also why it's a bad idea to run small turbos that spool too quick for the S85 on a stock compression.

I think the example used comparing the sleeves on a 427 small block Z06 to a sleevless S85 Block is not accurate. The reason why the 427 small block on the Z06 has been so unsuccessful with FI is because it is the largest small block Chevrolet/GM has ever produced using thin sleeves. To reach that displacement level the sleeves are bored paper thin to fit such a large piston in a small block, deeming it useless for FI.

We have quite a bit of experience tuning with the ionic module and have learned it's characteristics and behavior while increasing large amounts of fuel. We have the ability to monitor through the ionic module both quality of combustion and duration of spark to attenuate fuel curves properly. Thus far, we have yet to see the ionic module be a concern when tuning for increased amounts of fuel volume.

Last edited by ASR Engineering; 13th May 2009 at 19:52.
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Old 13th May 2009, 20:23   #89
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Dylan Thomas if I am reading your posts correctly it seems to me when referring to % of hp gained you are comparing the rwhp gain of the FI engine against the flywheel hp of the stock engine.
This would appear to yield the lower % hp gain.
I would think comparing flywheel to flywheel or rwhp to rwhp be more correct. Have I misunderstood your statement or is my comparison incorrect?

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Old 13th May 2009, 20:30   #90
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I stand corrected

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Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroCarFan View Post
I think you're misunderstanding the 420 vs 414 numbers for the M3. Both are at the flywheel. The 420 is the European measurement for brake hp and the 414 is the conversion to the American SAE standard. The "net" term does not mean it's at the wheels so you'd have to take the same drivetrain loss of ~20% (using your example) from the 414 and bring that down to 331 rwhp and then compare that to the 502 rwhp from the AA upgrade. Comparing those two numbers at the wheels still give a 50% increase in power.
EuroCarFan and Ranger, you're right, U.S. SAE h.p. is not the same as effective (true, wheel) h.p., I stand corrected. I was (incorrectly) remembering back when power was simply expressed as gross or net.

"SAE Net hp is measured at the engine's crankshaft, and so does not account for transmission losses. However, the SAE net hp testing protocol calls for standard production-type belt-driven accessories, air cleaner, emission controls, exhaust system, and other power-consuming accessories."

"DIN horsepower is the power measurement protocol in the German DIN standard 70020. It is sometimes abbreviated as "PS", which stands for Pferdestärke, which is the German word for horsepower. DIN hp is measured at the engine's output shaft, and is usually expressed in metric (Pferdestärke) rather than mechanical horsepower."

"Effective horsepower (EHP), True horsepower (thp) or wheel horsepower (whp) is the power converted to useful work. In the case of a road vehicle this is the power actually turned into forward motion as measured on a chassis dynamometer. Power available at the road is generally 10% to 20% less than the engine's bhp rating due to "coastdown" losses, most of which are due to the vehicle's rubber tires rather than true transmission losses. Front-wheel drive cars (provided a transverse engine layout is used) suffer slightly lower coastdown losses due to the absence of the bevelled crown and pinion gears used to change the drive direction in the back axle of a RWD car."

Horsepower - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That said, driving on U.S. roads, I still would rather have more torque at low rpm, over more torque or h.p. at high rpm. BMW specifically lowered the new M3's maximum torque to 295 lb-ft @ 3900 rpm vs 450 ft-lb @ 6,000 rpm for the force fed power plant.

Granted this is personal preference. I'd rather not have to downshift 2-3 gears at street speeds to get the engine up into the thick area of it's power band. Anyone who's driven a large displacement performance engine vs our S85s knows the difference.

I stand by my earlier comments, "When evaluating aftermarket units and claims, don’t rely on dyno numbers only. You want to see real world 0-60, 0-100 and 1/4 mile times at a minimum. Also what gas octane was used? From another thread, our S85s really need 95 Research Octane for full power, if you force feed your beast, you may need 100 octane racing gas, otherwise the OBD will simply dial back the timing and power. You might check the price and closest source of this fuel."

As a real world demonstration try the following. Drive your M5 until ~2-3 gallons remain. Then add 3-5 gallons of 87 octane regular, preferably Shell. After driving a few miles to mix the grades, check out the effects of the lower octane. You should notice a difference. Afterwords fill up with Shell 93 octane or higher to restore the power.
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