I agree that in most cases vendors wouldn't have this policy. But in this SPECIFIC case where a vendor is making a claim that most people cannot cooberate, it would be to the vendors benefit to in this one case make the investment. The rewards would be huge given the fact that all results would be reported here on the forum and the vendor could see a hugfe spike in orders. A small $1200 vendor investment by the vendor could reap huge rewards in sales given that everybody is so passioante about this topic.
Again, I am willing to be the ginnipig if Corsa or UUC want to set this up and settle it once and for all.
Rob, that is the exact same dyno graph posted 8 months ago. (Corsa exhaust Update?) At that time, you said you were busy compiling independent dyno charts from customers from different locales. I have yet to see those other charts. As of this time, I know of 2 charts... one from UUC and one from RPI, equaling a total of 2 charts. One says a gain and the other one showed a loss.
I was one of the biggest fans of the no drone F1 sound of Corsa from day 1. You can see my posts on the other Corsa threads that I was a big advocate. Seeing potential customer/board member Highedu's enthusiasm, I can relate as I was on that same boat less than 1 year ago. I spoke with Jim Browning Jr. (president or CEO) on many occasions, even alerting him to the HP discrepancy, to which he said he had no knowledge about. He said that he wasn't even aware of the dyno testing of the system at the time. I believe either you or him told me via email, that you were trying to obtain an M5 and run a before and after on a dyno. Then the graph shows up showing the gain about the same time that the "Production Quality Pre-Production" Corsa was tested here locally, which showed a loss. That was a shame... and no, no one with a normal "butt" can tell if 7 hp was gained or lost on the road, but just seeing it on a dyno is a let down, especially when people are willing to pay thousands to gain a handful of HP... losing is not an option. Call people perfectionists, anal retentative... just like door dings. One or two won't hurt.... Curb rash... it's just a fraction of the lip of the rim that's damaged. You can see my point.
For the record, Eloy never pushed me to get his setup. In fact, he offered to do a before/aft if I had him install a Corsa. Perhaps the results were an anomaly. Perhaps the "hand-made production quality pre-production model" is not exactly the same as the ones you are selling now. I contacted both Rob (UUC) and Jim (Corsa) regarding this, and you guys never got back to me.
I am not saying anything good or bad about either company. Eloy (RPI) never tested products such as the Corsa or AFE intake behind closed doors and prints his results to the world (I'm not saying you guys are, either). There was always a crowd of enthusiasts looking on. He often times let the owner of the tested vehicle posts his own results. He just calls it as he sees it, and does not play the politics of merchant vs customers, or you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. You can question his machine, you can questions his testing methods, you can question the test mules... but implying that he is skewing results is not what he is about. When he sees gains with a Dinan Airbox, AA exhaust, Dinan exhuast, ESS tune, he'll back that up too. And when he (and all witnesses) sees a loss, he just tells the community what transpired and the data that comes with it. Yes, he gets a lot of heat from other vendors and tuners...
But the best way to counter that, from a customer's standpoint, is to:
1. Show tests that prove the contrary
2. Elaborate on other testing methods that prove otherwise
3. Stand behind the product and offer a full money back guarantee
Arguing about how it is not possible, or how someone's butt dyno showed gains, or attacking another dyno operators merrits/intentions will not do your potential customer's justice. Though I commend Corsa on the exhaust systems that gained on other cars, I think we want more data on how *this* system performs on *this* car. [ if you are familiar with it, this arguement reminds me of MHP validating gains on the S85 motor because he was able to tune the Merc C63).
Again, I am not attacking Corsa. I think they have one of the best sounding exhausts, and the RSC cancellation tech to stop drone is pretty revolutionary. Now if we can just see some more *positive* feedback through data.... Tuners ant********* each other will just bring the reputation down for all vendors involved. It is a lose-lose propostion and will leave onlookers with a bad taste in their mouth from both parties.
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Last edited by EM_5; 19th December 2008 at 14:07.
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Rob, that is the exact same dyno graph posted 8 months ago. (Corsa exhaust Update?) At that time, you said you were busy compiling independent dyno charts from customers from different locales. I have yet to see those other charts. As of this time, I know of 2 charts... one from UUC and one from RPI, equaling a total of 2 charts. One says a gain and the other one showed a loss.
Hmmm... I did post a second one... I think it got accidentally deleted in the "cleanup".
Here it is again, this dyno not done by UUC:
I am promised one more today from yet another independent shop.
I would love to offer a "money back guarantee" regarding dyno results, but the truth is, dyno testing techniques vary too much and we run into this exact sort of situation.
I'm going to give an example of something that, in "short term internet memory loss" fashion, many people are not aware of. A few years ago, European Car magazine ran an extensive test of M3 exhaust systems. They ran practically every single exhaust available (and the the gossip is that those not present were tested, and offered the opportunity to have their bad results omitted) on the dyno, and did it correctly with all temp factors, etc., monitored. Same car, same dyno, same day. As much of a truly accurate mass-comparison as possible.
So all these companies, in their advertising literature, were advertising huge gains. 10hp... 15hp... 20hp!!! WOW!!! What kind of naive customer were they picturing, some guy saying, "I need that exhaust! It's more power than NOS!!!" ?
We knew it was all hooey. That kind of power doesn't come from just an exhaust change.
We did have our own dyno graph for our system on the website. Showed an accurate modest gain in peak power, but significant fattening up of the mid-range hp and torque curves. We used to lose sales because people would compare our legitimate graph with the pumped-up "marketing" graphs from the other companies.
So the dyno results come out in the magazine article... and guess what happened? UUC, #1 power/torque production.
Suddenly, all those other companies pulled their ads showing power gains. How interesting.
The point being, is that of all the companies that I am aware of in terms of their marketing history, UUC has always been the most accurate and legitimate in terms of what information we release about a product. That fact right there is why we take such umbrage to the release of third-party data that we know is not accurately representative.
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For what it's worth I think most folks who hear and see the Corsa exhaust are impressed.
If we didn't care so much about dynos then this discussion probably wouldn't be happening.
IMHO dyno numbers provided by the manufacturer should also be taken with a grain
of salt. Again, they want to sell their exhaust and may also take advantage of the
almighty dyno charts just as anyone else who might have a hidden agenda. Even if the
company says that the dynos are from an independent source are we still supposed
to trust that? For all we know that particular sampling represents a deviation from
the norm as well? So basically no dyno chart that isn't supplied through the company
should be considered valid? This game can go on and on.
Maybe over time enough independent data shows up that can lead a prospective
buyer to an informed decision. In this small market with so many different
options this data may never appear. I would say that this hurts the company
more than the consumer.
I guess we should all once again agree that a person should get a section 3
to enjoy the sound and looks and worry less about what possible performance
effects it might have.
I guess we should all once again agree that a person should get a section 3
to enjoy the sound and looks and worry less about what possible performance
effects it might have.
Agreed...+100000. You will never feel the difference anyway...Cans are just for sound so why sweat it?
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2007 M6 Cab, Silverstone Silver, Indy Red Full Merino, Fully loaded.
If you lose 5 hp? I wouldnt sweat it too much if it was the sound that I loved. If you are that concerned with power I would say go for a full system, no?
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