What we need are two bone stock M5's... one with Afe Intakes and the other with RPi RAM kit.. and let them hit the highway!!
Which brings me to my next question... are there any stock M5's left anymore??? LOL
Well I think the main debate here is whether the aFe intakes lose power or not so all you need is a stock M5, have it run against another stock or relatively stock M5 and then put the aFe intakes on and re-run the same car to see any differences.
But just like dynos, there are so many factors that you have to try to keep constant between the two runs to make it relevant.
Regardless of dyno, real world etc, I think we can all agree that AFE's product DOES NOT do what it claims: "This air intake system produces 28 max horsepower, 24lbs. x ft. torque and out-flowed the factory intake by 117%." - thats straight from their website. They developed this product and tested on dyno's so why are so many people discounting the relevance of dyno testing??? I understand the difference between "dyno" and "real world" but the fact is, the "real world" is not a controlled environment - it has so many variables that make it simply impossible to get accurate data with these kinds of products.
And a side note, this wasnt RPI doing the testing on the AFE product to prove theirs superior. I bought the AFE Intake and I actually paid for the dynos myself. RPI just faciliated the deal.
Bmwpower06 will have a good race to judge as it is the same exhaust between him and his cousin, the only difference is the intake systems...
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2004 Mini Cooper S: Alta supercharger 15% pulley upgrade, Dinan cold-air intake, Skunk2 header back exhaust, RMW CUSTOM TUNE, Alta oil catch can, OMP Strut brace, Eibach pro-kit springs, H-Sport camber links, 19mm Rear sway bar w/ adj. end links, 18 in. Breyton mini magics, 6lbs lighter crank pulley, polyeurathane tranny and engine bushings, wheel Studs, Wilwood BBK... More to come soon!
RIP=White 944 turbo: KKK K-27/6 turbo, upgraded intercooler, Lindsey Racing hardpipes, Autothority MAF, B&B exhaust with 4.5" oval tip, Siemens #55 fuel injectors, Lindsey Racing MaxHP custom Chip set, 3 bar fuel pressure regulator, Re-worked head and slightly overbored pistons, Spec Lightened 6 puck stage 3 clutch, Quaif torque biase differential, Apexi AVC Type-R Electronic boost controller, HKS type-1 turbo timer, Shimmed wastegate, Champion Motorsports adj. bypass valve, Weltmeister front and rear sway bars, Weltmeister strut tower brace, Koni adj. "yellows", unknown springs, Turbo Twist rims, Kumho Ecsta Supra tires... And a couple of more unknown mods...
But those Dyno results to me personally are not worth the concern. And quite honestly... starting with a healthy setup would have been more conclusive.
Here is the question you can ask yourself. "where does the cold air come from?" dont say the ducts cause there is no way its going to suck cold air from the factory ducts. Put a temp sensor there and watch the temps rise. On Av8's car, his IATs were near 140F+ with the AFE.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahmed
I honestly do not understand how people can just ignore the "real life speed phenomenon" when talking about a "ram" intake system?? Dynos will never give you that privilage! You need a bloody wind tunnel to get it right!
The good thing about underating the performance is that we will absolutely rule on the street. You could have saved yourself money too buy buying the pile of AFE intakes we have here. The customers that had us take them off dont even want them so I could have shipped it to you at no cost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroCarFan
Since this debate is now officially resurrected from the dead, let me throw more fuel into the fire:
In the Oct issue of European Car Magazine, they tested three products on an E60 M5; Powerchip Stage 1 software, AFE Intake and Evosport Pulley.
The PC tune showed a max gain of 10hp and 10lb-ft, the Evosport pulley showed +8hp and +8lb-ft.
The interesting part is the AFE intake which showed +9hp and +6lb-ft. The test notes said that they actually saw a drop in horsepower on the first couple of passes but then after a few more runs, the power "...rose and stayed there". They mentioned they weren't sure if ECU adaption for fuel had anything to do with the changes.
Their testing method is different than RPIs as they mentioned they cooled down the car to make sure all the testing parameters were the same as the baseline run whereas I think RPI did repeated runs without any cooldowns to simulate "real world" conditions where a person could possibly do repeated runs and not get a chance to rest his car. Also not sure if they did it with the hood opened or closed.
Overall, they got peak power gains of 20whp and 13lb-ft from the three combined mods. They also performed some 40-120mph runs on their VBox and got 10.8 seconds with all the mods compared to 11.4 with the stock car.
Let the debate continue.
I'll run an AFE car ANYDAY. Call me and lets run. Bragging and blowing hot air on the forum is one thing but I have called several out and I'm still waiting. Atleast Greg was man enough to do some runs with DB after putting on the *** exhaust and admitted defeat. I totally respect that.
Here is the question you can ask yourself. "where does the cold air come from?" dont say the ducts cause there is no way its going to suck cold air from the factory ducts. Put a temp sensor there and watch the temps rise. On Av8's car, his IATs were near 140F+ with the AFE.
Good point! Apart from the cold air efffect..
What I've been trying to understand is how the stock filter box design, and filter shape ( regardless of material ) compliment a "RAM" phenomenon. I mean, how much is the "RAM" effect being utilized by keeping a stock box and filter design?
I would have thought ramming air into a cone filter gives much better results at higher speeds where air dissipation almost completely removes the hot air effect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPIpower
The good thing about underating the performance is that we will absolutely rule on the street. You could have saved yourself money too buy buying the pile of AFE intakes we have here. The customers that had us take them off dont even want them so I could have shipped it to you at no cost.
Although I do not have an M5, I have been lurking on this board for some time. I do own an E60 545i and am a member of E60.net. I have subscribed to this thread as I have an AFE Intake installed. I was one of the original members who purchased this intake on a group buy. I am very curious of whether or not the AFE actuall produces any gains. I will admit, I never dynoed my car before or after so I cannot judge whether or lost or gained hp. I do know however the intake sounds great and I have noticed increased throttle response. I have had it in my car for about a year and a half now and have had no issues.
I think first and foremost, we need to thank Avi8tr who went above and beyond in his attempts to test the AFE Intake. He purchased the intake, paid for the dyno and used his car as a test mule for this test. I also want to thank Eloy of RPI for not only providing great products but for providing an excellent service to the communities.
With that said, I do have to admit I am a little concerned with the dyno results. Ideally I would have liked to see the dyno results on a stock M5. When you have a car that is modified, you are introducing more variables to the mix. I've seen in the past on some of my own vehicles, some mods. that were not compatible with each other. Not to mention the less than ideal baseline on the OP's car. Apparently, there were some issues. I would have liked to see those issues resolved before an real world testing was performed. But that is only my opinion. Another key issue is ECU Adaptation. I know RPI says that is not needed. I have spoken with other vendors who beg to differ on this subject. Who is right? I don't know. Again, I am not questioning anyone as I am in no way an expert. But with OBDII, I have always understood it is an adaptive ECU. If that is true, then why would ECU Adaptation not be necessary? Maybe the BMW M5 motor is different? Again, I simply do not know. I have had simliar designed intakes on some of my previous cars (300ZX TT, Supra TT, Eclispe GSX and a 330Ci). I have dynoed those cars and always saw an increase in hp. But the dyno always occured after some miles have been logged and never at the point of install. Why would this design be different? I do see how heat soak would be an issue while the car is stationary or at low speeds. But once the car is in motion, in theory it would be sucking in cooler air correct?
I have read European Car's test as mentioned bu EuroCarFan. Thank you ECF! I do agree with the OP. AFE did not deliver what they claimed their product could deliver. But according to the article, it did produce 9hp. So the question now becomes, does the AFE make any HP, or does it lose HP. Apparently in the article, they had to dyno the car several times and allow some cool down time. But once that was done, the AFE did perform. So is ECU Adaptation required? Again, I don't know. Was the OP's car cooled down between runs? How much time was allowed in between runs if so? What was the IAT when the AFE was installed? Was there a longer cool down period after the AFE was removed and the RPI installed? We all know when hot lapping, your performance numbers will not be at their peak. I have seen this on all the cars I have ever tracked.
Again, these are just my thoughts and my personal opinions. I have a lot of questions regarding this intake and I am proud to be apart of the E60 Community. I highly respect the amount of knowledge on these boards and the service it provides to enthusiasts from all over.
Although I do not have an M5, I have been lurking on this board for some time. I do own an E60 545i and am a member of E60.net. I have subscribed to this thread as I have an AFE Intake installed. I was one of the original members who purchased this intake on a group buy. I am very curious of whether or not the AFE actuall produces any gains. I will admit, I never dynoed my car before or after so I cannot judge whether or lost or gained hp. I do know however the intake sounds great and I have noticed increased throttle response. I have had it in my car for about a year and a half now and have had no issues.
I think first and foremost, we need to thank Avi8tr who went above and beyond in his attempts to test the AFE Intake. He purchased the intake, paid for the dyno and used his car as a test mule for this test. I also want to thank Eloy of RPI for not only providing great products but for providing an excellent service to the communities.
With that said, I do have to admit I am a little concerned with the dyno results. Ideally I would have liked to see the dyno results on a stock M5. When you have a car that is modified, you are introducing more variables to the mix. I've seen in the past on some of my own vehicles, some mods. that were not compatible with each other. Not to mention the less than ideal baseline on the OP's car. Apparently, there were some issues. I would have liked to see those issues resolved before an real world testing was performed. But that is only my opinion. Another key issue is ECU Adaptation. I know RPI says that is not needed. I have spoken with other vendors who beg to differ on this subject. Who is right? I don't know. Again, I am not questioning anyone as I am in no way an expert. But with OBDII, I have always understood it is an adaptive ECU. If that is true, then why would ECU Adaptation not be necessary? Maybe the BMW M5 motor is different? Again, I simply do not know. I have had simliar designed intakes on some of my previous cars (300ZX TT, Supra TT, Eclispe GSX and a 330Ci). I have dynoed those cars and always saw an increase in hp. But the dyno always occured after some miles have been logged and never at the point of install. Why would this design be different? I do see how heat soak would be an issue while the car is stationary or at low speeds. But once the car is in motion, in theory it would be sucking in cooler air correct?
I have read European Car's test as mentioned bu EuroCarFan. Thank you ECF! I do agree with the OP. AFE did not deliver what they claimed their product could deliver. But according to the article, it did produce 9hp. So the question now becomes, does the AFE make any HP, or does it lose HP. Apparently in the article, they had to dyno the car several times and allow some cool down time. But once that was done, the AFE did perform. So is ECU Adaptation required? Again, I don't know. Was the OP's car cooled down between runs? How much time was allowed in between runs if so? What was the IAT when the AFE was installed? Was there a longer cool down period after the AFE was removed and the RPI installed? We all know when hot lapping, your performance numbers will not be at their peak. I have seen this on all the cars I have ever tracked.
Again, these are just my thoughts and my personal opinions. I have a lot of questions regarding this intake and I am proud to be apart of the E60 Community. I highly respect the amount of knowledge on these boards and the service it provides to enthusiasts from all over.
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