Interest in Twin Turbo M5? - Page 35

wilsodh · 5th February 2008, 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBump

I was thinking about the sleeves, and while I see no issues with half a bar, once they get over 12, at high rpm, I could see some issues with ring lands. However, all of that is a function of hotspots on the pistons and tuning. I think on the supercharged cars running into problems, it was because the vanos was advancing the cam timing at higher rpm, which was causing some detonation.

I think timing & tuning pushing the boost envelope with the S62 has generally been on the conservative side due to concerns about the S62 short block. We're not talking about backyard warriors who don't know FI fundamentals and managing detonation. At least four different tuners reached the same conclusion.

If HPF can reliably get 1000hp out of a stock S62 short block.. well, I was gonna say I'll turn in my s/c, but I love the sound too much!

Cheers
D

jimmyz2 · 5th February 2008, 17:36

"At half a bar (~8psi) I would guess that 650-700 easy. Also, it will be easier on the engine because there's no crank loading from the supercharger belt."

Actually,it will be harder on the engine due more boost spread over a wider RPM range.With a CF system.the engine only "sees" boost at much narrower range and hence,less wear on the motor.

HPF Chris · 5th February 2008, 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBump

This unit is why HPF can and will be successful. It simply is badass, and the relationship they have with AEM will ensure the tuning on it is top notch.

http://aempower.com/ViewCategory.aspx?CategoryID=116

The two best things about the unit are the fact that it can drive larger injectors and control cam timing systems while keeping all the other functions of the ecu intact. Also, the interface for their engine management systems is really intuitive and after you get through the learning curve, easy to use.

If that's not enough, read the forums on the F/IC and you will see exactly how powerful the system is when combined with a UEGO wideband and the AEM tru boost controller.

We hired AEM's lead engineer and we developed our own engine management system. AEM manufactured it for us. The item above is AEM's new ignition and fuel computer which I hear works very well, but it is not what we're using. We developed a "plug-n-play" full standalone that piggybacks on top of the factory DME.

Here is a picture of our EMS. This pre-configuration is for the E46 M3. I will have pictures of the pre-configuration for the E39 M5 shortly.

FastPOLAK · 5th February 2008, 21:07

i think i just had an accident

alquazi · 5th February 2008, 21:59

Hi Chris,

What modifications would be required for the tt setup if I would Install it in my M5 with the schrick cams, Headers, and free flow exhaust?

Thanks,
Al

jimmyz2 · 6th February 2008, 07:28

Chris,I know the new AEM is bad-***.But is it a full standalone or a piggyback?What can it do more than the other piggybacks out there?Does it allow you to control fuel/timing etc. and then piggyback for AC and other OEM functions?

BigBump · 6th February 2008, 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by HPF Chris

We hired AEM's lead engineer and we developed our own engine management system. AEM manufactured it for us. The item above is AEM's new ignition and fuel computer which I hear works very well, but it is not what we're using. We developed a "plug-n-play" full standalone that piggybacks on top of the factory DME.

HPF - I figured you worked with AEM to develop a custom computer using a lot of the technology from their I/FC, since their commercial one only does up to 6 cylinders. Regardless, its badass. Is that an onboard 3bar map sensor?

D - You're right, I'm a backyard warrior who doesn't know about tuning. However, it's been discussed at length that the main bearings lose their film strength at high rpm, fail, and then rods bend and people have accused the rods of being the faulty part of the shortblock. Nissan had the same problem in their SR20 race engines back in the early 90's and developed bearings with more oiling galleys and fixed the problem. Subsequently, the rods stopped failing.

olis1 - Naw, I just came from the turbo import world. I've always loved BMWs and the M5. I have bought a lot of stuff from, and followed HPF for awhile. Nothing but the utmost respect for them. I've seen tons of hate on them in the supra world already - same things people are saying now, just like the guys on the M3 forums when they made their M3 kit about the block can't take it and this art will fail or that part will fail. They have come correct with their products everytime, so if they say they can do it, I believe em. Kinda like I'm Morpheus and they're Neo.

jimmyz22 - The supercharger is always loading the crank and as such all the bearings in the system. That additional force is there during startup, constantly through the rpm range, etc. Turbos load the engine when there's a load put on the engine, giving a responsible driver time to warm up the car, make sure the oil pressure's good and then beat on the car with that additional boost you're talking about. Holed pistions and broken ring lands happen from heat problems and poor tuning.

I'm just happy to see that this is happening. I'm very excited to see that M5 standalone and the rest of the developments ahead.

-Bump

jetblack01m5 · 6th February 2008, 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by alquazi

What modifications would be required for the tt setup if I would Install it in my M5 with the schrick cams, Headers, and free flow exhaust?

Just a guess on my part, but you'll lose the headers (assuming the turbo system isn't remote mount). The cams could probably be accounted for in a DME reprogramming and the free flow exhaust should be far enough down stream of any exhaust plumbing changes that it won't matter.

wilsodh · 6th February 2008, 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBump

D - You're right, I'm a backyard warrior who doesn't know about tuning. However, it's been discussed at length that the main bearings lose their film strength at high rpm, fail, and then rods bend and people have accused the rods of being the faulty part of the shortblock. Nissan had the same problem in their SR20 race engines back in the early 90's and developed bearings with more oiling galleys and fixed the problem. Subsequently, the rods stopped failing.

Hey Bump, if I seem skeptical in some of my comments, it is not a knee-jerk thing like some of the 3r/bimmerforums and other crowds (notice I've never said 'kaboom'

) Informed experimentation, pushing the envelope, and seeing what can be done with the M5 is a very good thing indeed! I'm really looking forward to seeing a tt set up. As I've stated, I think HPF has the deep pockets and know-how to make it happen.

Over the years, some good minds have been applied to boosting the S62. There have been some lessons learned along the way. If it is of any help, I thought I'd share what seems to be a main concern high boosting this engine. It is not the bearings, and it is not detonation. It is the thin walls and the fact that the engine is aluminum and not grey iron, as is the rigid S54. Two cracked blocks would seem to indicate the concerns are well founded. Shadowman also had concerns about the alusil coating of the cylinder bores with high-boost applications. Given the number of pistons that have failed, it may also be prudent to worry about the strength of the stock pistons under high boost.

That said, I'm 100% 'pro HPF', although I'm not big on pre-selling and tossing around big numbers (ala Currency Motor Cars). I really like HPFs pump gas/racing gas feature on the e46. That is waaay cool!

Dave

Ted · 6th February 2008, 21:03

Does anyone know if a TMS shark injector will work with the HPF kit or will the AEM software and engine management over-ride anything the injector does?