Q&A from a Dinan Engineer - The Unofficial BMW M5 Messageboard (m5board.com)

Clem · 30th August 2006, 18:19

Now that Dinan has signed up as a board sponsor and assigned a rep (Paul). I took it upon myself to PM him a couple of questions which he answered quite quickly (Thanks for that Paul

) and thought might benefit the membership as a whole. So here are the questions I asked and his replies.

Sidenote: might be a great sticky for people to ask their questions to/about Dinan and have them answered.

Question 1:

Occasionally Dinan parts come up for sale as people "part out" their cars or head in different directions with their modifications. I was wondering if purchasing and installing these parts would hinder a person's ability to achieve S/S1/S2 status on their vehicle as they were not purchased from a Dinan dealer new.

Answer:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dinan Engineer

Yes you can get the S status buy buying parts second hand, with a few conditions.
The parts have to be for your car, i.e. putting a 550 intake on a 545 will not work. Also tech support is limited when parts are resold. When the car gets a S level you can go to a Dinan authorized dealer and have the car inspected. The dealer will then confirm this to us and appropriate action can be taken.

Question 2:

I know it is it not a normal Dinan policy but now that you are a sponsor of the board will there be any discounts available?

Answer:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dinan Engineer

We really can't and here is why. We have a dealer network (both BMW dealers and independents) that we feel is a very important part of our customer service. A car is a complex product that requires support and having 150+ locations in the US is great for our customers. Giving discounts is not fair to our dealers because we make the products and could always undercut their price. Because of this we do not offer discounts.

Question 3: (I'll give Paul a chance to answer this one in the thread)

Why don't Dinan's E39 wheels come in 19" offerings?

Dinan Engineer · 30th August 2006, 18:39

Ride quality and performance, and to some degree in the late 90’s there was far fewer 19’s out. The most common comment when people put our rims on is that they are blow away that the car rides better. Most enthusiasts know that unsprung weight has a huge impact on performance, both straight line acceleration and cornering. What many people do not know is that the ratio of unsprung mass to sprung mass has a big effect on ride. So in some cases our wheels run a lower aspect ratio tire and still ride better than stock.

M5Kid · 31st August 2006, 00:28

If I may ask for a follow up to the wheel question:

Dinan, and BMW offer a 19" wheel for the E46 M3. I assume this is done because of the cars already more frantic and sportier personality (i.e. ride quality is not as much a concern), along with aesthetics (the E46 has big flared wheels arches and wells). Am I correct in assuming this?

Sincerely,

Travis

Dinan Engineer · 31st August 2006, 00:42

We offer a 19 because BMW does, as far as why BMW does I would suspect that rim diameter is as much a marking/style decision as much as a performance decision. I would agree that ride quality would be more of a concern with the M5 than M3.

doug · 31st August 2006, 01:21

Ok, I'll bite. How many sets of headers would you guys need to make to have your pricing competitive w/ that of Supersprint? For example, beastpower.com has them priced at $2995.

PJS · 31st August 2006, 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by doug

Ok, I'll bite. How many sets of headers would you guys need to make to have your pricing competitive w/ that of Supersprint? For example, beastpower.com has them priced at $2995.

If you can get remotely close to that price, I am in.

and I would order CAI, and exhaust at the same time

.

MCarRacr07 · 31st August 2006, 01:38

I for one am happy to see Dinan step up and this kind of tech support available to the board. Whether your a fan/user or not.....this board certainly represents the core client that Dinan needs/wants/has...from a business perspective. Perhaps with more constructive feedback and questions from board members we may sway Dinan in certain ways ie. pricing..product...installs etc. much like what happened with BMW AG and the E36 M3.....so many people/enthusiasts wrote BMW when it was learned that they had originally no intention of bringing the M3 to the states...that they realized the market existed and the rest as they say is history.
As for posting as a sticky all the ???? & answers

good call...keeps people from asking the same stuff.
Regards
MCar

mottati · 31st August 2006, 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by doug

Ok, I'll bite. How many sets of headers would you guys need to make to have your pricing competitive w/ that of Supersprint? For example, beastpower.com has them priced at $2995.

According to our recent meet at dinan, their in house cost to build these is significantly higher, from a parts and man hour standpoint, than the $3k that supersprints are. Add to that the near year long R&D done before the headers were first released, you'll never see a similar price to the supersprints. If you want dinan headers, catch a 20% off sale, is my thought.
Mike

Dinan Engineer · 31st August 2006, 02:28

It really isn’t a mater of units produced; there is a tremendous amount of labor in producing these headers. There is approaching 40 hours of labor in these headers; every joint is ground to an exact fit to ensure optimal flow every weld is a tig weld done by a highly skilled welder. Ask anyone who has been through our plant and laid eyes on them about what their impression was. This is one of our lowest % markup parts that we make. We went through 31 generations designing these headers. Between the fab, install, dyno testing there was a tremendous cost in R & D. We also feel that there is value added in our product in smog legality, 150+ places nation wide for service, and our warranty coverage.

I understand that often the perception of us is often that we are just charging too much and getting rich, while I wish that were true

the truth is that it really costs that much to do it right. If we were just gouging people then certainly someone in 26 years would have come along and offered the same quality and value at a lower price and put us out of business. There are very few products that we make that do not have several competitors.

One of the main reasons that we are out here is we need to be better at communicating to the enthusiasts the effort and R&D that goes into our products. I understand that many people would like the same high quality products at much lower prices. Every day when I design products I constantly am looking for ways to make products more cost effective without hurting the quality. One of the things that has distinguished Dinan in the market place is that we do things right no mater the cost. If the cost becomes too great we simply don’t make the product. These headers almost didn’t get made because it really is that expensive of us to manufacture.

We have many costs that our competitors do not. Warranty, the ability to have a problem looked at a 150 locations nation wide if there is a problem, smog legality, Steve Dinan’s salary (just kidding!) to name a few. Many people see value in this approach and this is why Dinan has been in business for 26 years. At the end of the day, the good news is that we have choices in where we can spend our discretionary dollars. Dinan has enjoyed a loyal following over the years because many consumers recognize the value of our approach. If that is not true in your case then, by all means, you can purchase the products of you choosing.

Hey at the surface we should all be driving Hyundai’s both have 4 wheels, a motor, move us from place to place and you can get a Hyundai for about 1/3 the cost of a BMW. But we all understand that there is more to a comparison than price.

We are very happy and excited that so many people are interested in our product. Please keep the feedback coming, we are here to get a pulse for what the market wants as well as answer question.

Cheers

Paul

doug · 31st August 2006, 03:01

Paul,

Thank you for your thorough and thoughtful explanation-- and w/ a sense of humor as well.

I was hoping that on a larger group buy that your costs could be amortized out a bit further than it seems possible. And sure, you have to have some built-in for warranty and smog passage.

That being said, it is still difficult to rationalize the cost differential against any incremental gains in power, torque, or applied distribution of either. What seems to be apparent from various dyno-run postings is that the 4-2-1 design, or perhaps another factor, yields a bit better (~10%) torque down low. Other than that the gains *seem* to be a virtual dead heat. You must have good heuristics yourself, I would think.