Considering an E39 M5.....got some questions for you pros - The Unofficial BMW M5 Messageboard (m5board.com)

ArcticFox · 25th May 2006, 17:18

Greetings....

First, about me. I have had two E36 M3's with the most recent being pretty well "tracked out". I have been attending HPDE's for about 9 years and have been instructing the last two years. For the last year I have owned a 996 GT3. I have a 4 year old and a busy lifestyle...and it is getting even busier with less freetime to "play".

Here's the rub. The GT3 is a truly awesome track car. However, around town it is fairly useless unless you just want to get somewhere. If you need to hit Costco, Home Depot, etc., forget it. It has no room, only two seats, and well, isn't "stealthy" at all. I get more attention than I want when I drive it. lol.

I am getting more and more into real estate too.....so I need room. Also, I am getting a bit burnt out on tracking too....I am thinking I need a break from it....not go so much anymore (plus I don't have the time either). I think if I had a larger car, it would suit my needs 90% of the time, but still be "fun" to take to the track once in a while (ie: a couple times a year).

I am leaning really hard towards a sedan with power (The 4 doors would be great....and I need power too!).

So, I have narrowed down my selection to a few cars:

E55
M5
RS6

E55's have big time reliability issues and I aint too impressed with the SBC braking system.

RS6 is a fine car, but sort of an odd duck. Only built one year and also known for a weak tranny (comes in auto only) if you tweak the car at all (if you knew me, you know I would tweak it).

M5 -- replaced by a 500 hp V10 monster, fairly good reliability though, prolly the best handling of the bunch.

So, I am about 90% certain I am going to get an E39 M5. It seems like the best fit and best blend of reliability and functionality of the bunch.

What I would like to know is your feedback. I have been browsing this forum for a week+ and reading all I can about the car. I see there have been a few issues with carbon build-up, the clutch not tolerating "abuse", that it needs a brake upgrade for serious driving/HPDE's, but is a great car in general. I would be appreciative to hear anything you have to say about the car asside from "its wonderful, buy one", as that doesn't tell me much. I want to know the common issues for the car, what to expect to replace and when (ie: clutch!, etc.), and recommended upgrades. Give me the nuts and bolts version....I can handle it.

I have driven a friends M5 and liked it overall. It needs a short shifter as the factory one is sloppy at best (just as was my M3's), some tranny mounts, and maybe a bit of suspension work. But I do want your feedback!!! I am very familiar with E36 M3's and know BMW's fairly well, so you don't need to explain VANOS, etc. I will know most of the stuff you would normally refer to here.

Please fell free to share anything and everything about the car that you want to!

I look forward to you insight. Thanks in advance! Tim

ELEVENS · 25th May 2006, 17:42

Hi Tim. Your short list of three exactly matched mine back when I was looking. I had the same issues with the E55, my local Audi dealer was not "RS certified", so that left the E39 M5 and I ordered one. It's been a great car for sure with no regrets whatsoever. Just keep in mind that you will ALWAYS be able to find a faster car, or a car that handles better on the track, or a car with more room, or a car that looks sportier, or a car that is more luxurious, etc. etc. But you won't find a car with all of those attributes more perfectly balanced than the E39 M5. It's that balance that makes the E39 M5 the greatest luxury sport sedan available at any price.

wilsodh · 25th May 2006, 18:01

I second that. The overall package can't be beat. The weakness on the car may or may not be overly important to you depending on your intended use. Yeah, you can toast the clutch if you are not careful, but they've also been known to last 100+k miles, so how you use it obviously directly impacts its lifespan. Rear sway could be beefier and the oem doesn't hold up to track abuse well. Brakes aren't particularly robust to hard track use, but no surprise there. No doubt bmw chose the design based on typical users rather than hard core users. Vanos is potentially big ticket, but not sure I'd consider it a weak area. Carbon build up only impacts cold start emissions, not performance. It can be a problem when you face obd2 inspection. If you get an '03, you should be free of worries about this for quite some time. Other common items are MAFs and cps. These are not big ticket items are are readily DIY.

Dave

Stickman · 25th May 2006, 18:19

Hello Tim. There isn't much to add to what you've already said. (Kudos to you for doing the research ahead of time!)

I use my 02 M5 as a daily driver and it is just fine. But like you and your Porsche, I feel in some ways I am under utilizing the car because it is capable of so much more. The M5 is stealthy - (unless you put an aftermarket exhaust on it like many of us).

No car is perfect. You know BMWs so you know that they have their issues. But overall, I don't think that you can find a better overall package - power, style, luxury - oh, and it must have a stick for me!

(I don't want to do the Playstation Paddle thing in my car - I want fun of pushing in that clutch peddle and striving for that smooth engage.)

Because of the complexity of the package, I recommend that you get a car that is covered with CPO or warranty. It will cost more that way, but it gives you a safety net if something expensive goes bad.

Good luck.

Alfred

sshu930 · 25th May 2006, 19:02

Have people had that many bad reliability problems with the E55? I've heard of issues with the 03 build year but that a lot of the issues were stamped out by 05.

M5_33 · 25th May 2006, 19:09

first, hi all and thats my 1st post in the forums.
somehow i had the same issues before getting my 2002 E39 M5, but with different cars. Anyways, i had the car for almost 6 months now and i had no problem with it at all. it has a 50ks and a tubi exhaust system, with bmc air intakes. the car is perfect so far. And i agree with the shifter issue.

ArcticFox · 25th May 2006, 19:14

Thanks fellas...i am fairly sold on the car. I like the idea of a V10, but I am not fond of the body style (exterior or interior). The E39 looks much nicer IMHO. So............I will start to figure out how to unload the GT3 first. Shouldn't be too hard being as there are only 1,000 or so in the US. But I do have high mileage at 18K (for a GT3). The car has been "in service" for 29 months. Only about 7600 a year average, but that a lot for a GT3 amongst that crowd. I am the 2nd owner and I have only put 5 K on it in 13 months. He put on most of the miles! I have tracked it a few times (HPDE only), but it is mostly an around town/short commute car. So, I guess I will see how it goes! I should be able to sell it farily easily, I would think.

When I get the M5, I do plan on doing a few things to it asap. I like to plan ahead, so let me know if there is something else to consider.

I will buy a CPO car. I will pay that extra $$ to have 2 more years and the 100K warranty (although the 100K part of it won't apply as I dont drive too much).

Here are my criteria....

2003 M5
Silver or Sterling Grey
Black Interior (Sport only - I dont like the wood OR those non-sport seats)
Interior can be Black w/grey too, but no crazy colors like black/red, etc.)
Prefer <30K miles
Sport Package

Prefer:

Fold Down rear seats
Rear shade(s)
Xenon (are these stock or not)

Thats about it.

What I plan to do to it:

asap - short shifter (prolly a Rogue)

In the near future:

sways
StopTech brake upgrade
beefy tranny mounts
SS brake lines
V1 mirror (had this in my M3 and loved it)
Sound system upgrade

Thats all I can think of right now.......comment appreciated.

I know I know, I dont even have the car yet, let alone sold mine yet. I just like to have this all sorted first. Then I know exactly what to do and when....things just "work out" better when you know exactly what you want and how you want it!

Tim

ArcticFox · 25th May 2006, 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by sshu930

Have people had that many bad reliability problems with the E55? I've heard of issues with the 03 build year but that a lot of the issues were stamped out by 05.

From what I have read, reliabilty has improved on them a bit....as one would expect. Mostly the issues were electronic (which are the worst kind IMHO). Many cars would "stall" for no reason and not restart. this would typically happen during a corner for some reason. Another issue was the SBC failing. Believe it or not, the brakes are controlled by a electronic actuator per se. If it senses a fault, IT SHUTS DOWN. This leaves you with "about 10% braking efficiency" per on owner I talked to who had this happen (imagine being at the track or ripping down some road and have only 10% of your brakes available). There is a hydrualic back up, but appearently it is not assisted, so you have to MASH on the pedal, and only get a fraction of the braking otherwise possible.

I have also seen a lot of Lemon Law returns on EBay too. Many of the ones I have seen are 05 with LOW miles (5K or less). NOT good. The car has to be really bad for that.

Also, MB was rated WORST (dead last) in reliabilty... (I think it was CP I read it in). At any rate, thats even worse than Hummer for God's sake.

Otherwise, i really like to car...I love the supercharger whine, the look of the car, the interior, etc. I just can't let myself buy a car that I am uncomfortable with, no matter how much I like it.

So, hey, its possible that what I read (MB forums) is untrue or exageratted, but it seems most of them guys still love their cars a lot, so I think they are being honest. Overall, it appears there are a few bad apples, just like any car company. But MB seems to have a higher percentage of such. So for now, I am staying away!

Feel free to post anything to the contrary. Of course, everything I have posted is IMHO and from what I have seen and read! I am not trying to piss anybody off, just wanted to convey my impressions.........and that is exactly what i am asking of your guys too.....your opinion/experience with the E39 M5.

Tim

7sport · 25th May 2006, 19:46

For what its worth, I came out of a 996 to the M5. Both were daily driven and I couldnt' be happier with my decision.

Not only is the porsche somewhat impractical but it lacks a lot of the subtle touches that the m5 comes with. My 996 didn't have auto-dimming mirrors, leather surfaces everywhere, navigation, alcantara and the list goes on. The M5 is much quieter and faster especially on the highway. The porsche handled much better (mine was on coilovers) in the tight stuff. It always felt like I knew where and what every inch of the car was doing. The M5 by comparison is really floaty. At high speeds, however, the M is the better handler - feels more composed due to the weight I think - even though i'm not 100% happy with the high speed cornering feel (needs to be tighter - less bouncy)

Am I happy with my decision? Absolutely. Do I miss the 911 - honestly 99.9% of the time I don't at all. Every now and then there's some tight left-right-change of elevation transition that makes me remember the porsche, but in all honesty I don't think the M5 is that far behind the 996 (mine wasn't a GT3) except for the way it feels doing it. Hopefully my soon to be installed GC suspension will close the gap.

I'll just list off some stuff that comes to mind.

Brakes: depends how you use the cars. I'm plenty happy with the M5 brakes. I actually like the feel better than the 996. But to be fair to the porsche I didn't track the cars wehre I'm sure the 996 brakes would have easily outperformed the M5 ones.

Power: Hands down the M5. Its more powerful, faster, and most noticeably has tremendous torque. Although I realize you're coming from a gt3. I've never driven one so I can't make a fair judgement. I still stand by the torque statement though

Steering: Porsche wins. Better feel. Tighter package - like I said you always know where every corner of the car is and what its doing and what it will do next.

Sound: Porsche has a nice sound and you can actually hear it. Sometimes it gets annoying on long trips. I had sport exhaust on my car. I really like the sound of the M5 V8 but I think it needs to be louder. Yeah that can be fixed with the aftermarket.

Noise: M5 much quiter. Less road noise, wind noice, fewer rattles.

Transmission/shifter: Both are in need of short shifter (gt3 need not apply again) but the porsch shifter was butter smooth. Quick flick of the wrist and it would glide right into gear. Clutch was much heavier on the porsche.

Looks: I liked looks of mine with the aerokit, but I'm a young guy and actually felt embarrassed to be seen getting out of the porsche when I got to work. Really flashy cars. Sometimes thats good, sometimes not. I love the looks of the M5 and especially like the whole image and concept of a 4 door car that handles really well and out-accelerates most single purpose sports cars.

Reliability: Nothing major with either car so far for me. 911 had RMS leaks (again gt3 need not apply) but M5 has its share of issues. My clutch has been fine - just passed 40k miles today. 996 had clutch replaced ~20k miles.

Mods: Expensive for both cars. More options for the 996.

Exclusiveness: I see way more 996 porsches than M5s. Way fewer GT3s than M5s and way more 5 series than 996s. I feel like my M5 is more special than the 996 I had. Its the top of the line BMW whereas my 996 was the base model 911. GT3 is definitely top of the line though, haha.

Habu · 25th May 2006, 19:53

ArcticFox,

Good luck on your search. I've had my eye on an E39 M5 when they first came out. I'm glad I got into one used. I don't think I considered the RS6 and was only lukewarm interested in the E55. You probably have already read where the price of the E39 is dropping and becoming more affordable for people.

Just be patient and you'll find the one you like. While it may not be perfect as brand new, the price difference and careful selection will be worth it.

Bob