Major engine damage - advice please - Page 14

6spd · 25th March 2006, 17:44

As for service, they lost me. I bought two 5 series from them, the M5 was used. I still make my way around them as much as I can.

wilsodh · 25th March 2006, 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAH

I have spoken with BMWNA on the phone and they understand my issues. If they will act on them is another story though. My car has been in the shop for over 3 weeks without this issue being settled to my satisfaction. It is time for BMWNA to make a final decision.

Mark,

Who did you talk to on the phone? Was it a first-line Customer Relations rep, or has this been kicked up a notch in the CR organization? Also we've seen examples of BMWNA being more accomodating when the complaint is put on paper. If you are dealing with a Customer Relations rep, you may be relying on him/her to present your case accurately. I don't know if I would have that confidence with so much at stake. Summarizing the situation along with some background in a letter and requesting that the letter be presented for review would be a course of action that puts you more in control of how the facts are presented.

Good luck,
Dave

Lscman · 26th March 2006, 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAH

Ok, go ahead and kick me. It probably is the only way to get my attention, but you have done that and I am stopping all work by the dealer at once until I reach what I feel is a fair settlement with BMWNA. I will set a timeframe for BMWNA to come to the table and settle this to my liking. If this does not occur, I will have the car along with all of the parts taken from the dealer to a reputable repair facility.

I have spoken with BMWNA on the phone and they understand my issues. If they will act on them is another story though. My car has been in the shop for over 3 weeks without this issue being settled to my satisfaction. It is time for BMWNA to make a final decision.

I want to tell everyone here how pleased I am with your informative responces to this rather complicated issue. Yes, there are someissues that are still in motion, but hopefully BMWNA will step up to the plate and settle this fairly for all involved.

I must say the dealer has been supportive, even if they made the mistake with the clutch. This week will tell me which way I need to head regarding a conclusion.

Mark

Sorry for kicking, friend. I am very concerned about your situation and hope you make some headway with them. IMO, calling timeout for a sanity check, further negotiation and to develop an action plan based upon "knowns" can only help you. It allows an opportunity for decision-making and a possible renegotiation of their warranty assistance.

I do not know how many labor hours have racked up since the initial $800 teardown diagnostic fee, so economically sound advise/recommendation can not be offered from our end. I am not recommending that you pull your car out of the dealership, until you consider everything. You simply need to make a sound financial decision based upon their BEST OFFER and KNOWN costs accrued and pending.

Don't get ugly with BMWNA or the dealer. Stay positive & open-minded! Be up-front and explain your reasoning to the dealer service folks. You need them to understand that you're on the ropes, scared and asking for their help. You need the dealers help in working with BMWNA. If either BMWNA or the dealer sense sthat you have an negative attitude that can not be erased with additional good will, you will get treated accordingly and a better deal will not offered.

BMWNA and your dealer should both respect your decision to stop work while negotiating a more reasonable deal.

If I were you, I'd be actively searching for an independent shop that might affordably perform an engine swap. The labor cost should not exceed $2K, as most skilled techs can do a swap in 8 hrs ($800). If you really are considering a plan B, you need to decide if "you're game" to chase a good used motor down. It takes an aggressive person who's patient, diligent and persistent. This kind of activity is best suited for folks with flexible work schedules who get a rush from flea markets and garage sales and especially driving 1000 mi to a nationally-advertized car parts swaps. Are you in this group or willing to play? If you get frustrated easily and don't want the hassle, decide accordingly. You may need to drive 20 hrs round-trip in a rental pickup to acquire a motor. Murphy's law might obligate you to turn around a drive home empty due to unanticipated issues. I've driven 20hrs round trip to fetch a $400 tranny more than once, so I'd be game for a $6K motor!! Are you similarly nuts?? I am also a bit unclear about your technical skills, investigation & negotiation capabilities. These are all attributes needed to ensure success & minimize risk.

Maybe your time is incredibly valueable to you. Setting aside time in a moment's notice to chase down a deal is not feasible for some folks and it may not be possible due to your job or other obligations. Maybe this engine acquisition effort would result in $5K loss of income. You'd need to factor that into your decision!!

Remember that Plan B engine swap will result in an extended period with your M5 sitting torn down, while you search for the right motor. If this is a spare toy, it's no big deal. If it's necessary transportation, such a plan could cost you money.

A top tier independent shop charges high rates and may not be able to rebuild your old motor from parts for less money than BMW's 1/3 discount deal. Rebuilding your basket case motor could be a problem for them because good M5 engine service literature is not available. Mechanics "remember" how they tore down and reassemble in reverse. A basket of parts does not facilitate this classic service method, so inefficiency can result that increases labor fees. As such, I think a motor swap is the only realistic independent shop option, now that the dealership has torn your motor completely apart. A genuine BMW V8 specialist may be able to piece it together successfully, but those folks are rare.

One last thing....If you really do choose to perform a complete motor swap, you do not need to use a BMW specialist. This is a straightforward unbolt and rebolt exercise that any competent mechanic can perform. It involves similar skills as a clutch job. A reliable, full service auto service shop with good rates should do fine. The only special skillset required is a familiarity with a few unique electrical connectors or mechanical disconnect piping that could be damaged if you didn't use "care". A good Chevy mechanic could do it.

MAH · 28th March 2006, 15:40

I did recieve a call from the dealer yesterday that the BMW rep. was willing to increase their cut to 45% so long as the repair did not include replacing the engine. If the engine needs to go, they will only do 33%. For the life of me I cannot figure that logic out. Oh yes, I needed to make my decision by yesterday for BMWNA to play at the higher level.

The BMW rep. is still calming that this was caused by low oil, yet I have nothing from them to back that up. There only claim here is that the most damaged areas were in cylinders #7 and #8 which are the last to recieve oil and would be the 1st to have damage if the oil level was low. Because I am not a mechanic I could not argue against that statement. I do know there was no low oil since I have owned the car.

So, it comes down to these items. The engine is torn down at this point.

1. The dealer is mic'ing the crankshaft today to see if that is an issue.
2. Cylinder #8 will have to be measured to see if that small area carved into the cylinder wall is going to be a big enough issue that the engine needs to be replaced. They are going to take the barb around the indentation off first and then measure to see if the cylinder is in spec.
3. If the engine has to go, I will have to pay for 55% of the labor to this point and perhaps find a used engine or a new one. BMW's cost for replacing the engine would be about $19,000. Of course they would only pay 1/3 of that. My cost would be $12,665. There is no way I would do that.

I cannot make up my mind because there are still too many unknowns. If the crankshaft and the engine are ok, then we complete the repaires, I get a two year warranty and I trade the car before that time is up.

If on the other hand if the engine has to go, this is where it becomes a real issue. Put $15,000 of repair cost back into a cat that has a value of around $40,000 on a trade at best. If I do not repair it I have a car that can be parted out, but I will never get anywhere near $40k for the pieces not to mention the hassle of parting it out.

I can tell you that this experience has left me pretty cold with regards to BMW. Here we have clearly a defect by BMW from a customer who has purchased two M5's in the last 5 years. BMW is only willing to cover a minority of the costs and continue to blame me for the failure. I call that very bad customer support and you can bet that will not leave me with anything but a bad taste in my mouth.

I wish there was something further I could do regarding this matter, but I am just venting at this point. Certainly I will end up paying a hefty amount for a failure not of my doing. It is just to bad that BMW has decided that they can do no wrong.

Mark

FredW · 28th March 2006, 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAH

I can tell you that this experience has left me pretty cold with regards to BMW. Here we have clearly a defect by BMW from a customer who has purchased two M5's in the last 5 years. BMW is only willing to cover a minority of the costs and continue to blame me for the failure. I call that very bad customer support and you can bet that will not leave me with anything but a bad taste in my mouth.

I wish there was something further I could do regarding this matter, but I am just venting at this point. Certainly I will end up paying a hefty amount for a failure not of my doing. It is just to bad that BMW has decided that they can do no wrong.

Mark

I think I'd start working my way up the food chain with well written letters. There is always somebody higher than the person who is telling you the 45%.

My $.02. Good luck.

MAH · 28th March 2006, 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by FredW

I think I'd start working my way up the food chain with well written letters. There is always somebody higher than the person who is telling you the 45%.

My $.02. Good luck.

I guess the real issue is knowing what that food chain looks like and getting to the right person.

Mark

Lscman · 28th March 2006, 17:10

History has proven that parting out a complete E39 M5 with blown motor is not economically feasible. you will spend an inordinate amount of labor to do it and you'll be lucky to clear $15K. See phillyM5 for advise on that.

If BMW limits their assistance to this token 33% offering for a long or short block, the best bet may be:

1) to repair at BMW dealer (reuse crank) & then trade or sell within warranty period or
2) swap with used motor at independent shop or
3) sell the car complete as-is on ebay and "hope" to break $25K. I think $20K top bid would be more likely. This seems to make option #2 more attractive.

At least you can quantify these alternatives a bit before moving forward. None of these options seem fair, but that's apparently BMWNA for you.

verhagke · 28th March 2006, 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAH

I did recieve a call from the dealer yesterday that the BMW rep. was willing to increase their cut to 45% so long as the repair did not include replacing the engine. If the engine needs to go, they will only do 33%. For the life of me I cannot figure that logic out.

.

I can imagine just how frustrating this must be for you. I suppose they believe the need for an engine swap has not yet been determined, and therefore are willing to pay less for a new engine. Perhaps if the dealer identifies that it needs to be replaced, they may extend 45% of the engine. As you pointed out, this would still be alot of money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lscman

History has proven that parting out a complete E39 M5 with blown motor is not economically feasible. you will spend an inordinate amount of labor to do it and you'll be lucky to clear $15K. See phillyM5 for advise on that.

agreed. BTW, if you end up deciding to go with a used engine, I know of a shop in NJ which has a used M5 motor. If you want, I can check with them to see if it's spoken for.

Lscman · 28th March 2006, 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by verhagke

.

I can imagine just how frustrating this must be for you. I suppose they believe the need for an engine swap has not yet been determined, and therefore are willing to pay less for a new engine. Perhaps if the dealer identifies that it needs to be replaced, they may extend 45% of the engine. As you pointed out, this would still be alot of money.

agreed. BTW, if you end up deciding to go with a used engine, I know of a shop in NJ which has a used M5 motor. If you want, I can check with them to see if it's spoken for.

I think a good motor with solid history (confirmed owner and body damage wreck) can be found for $7K within a couple months. If a shop has a motor with solid history and they're willing to install it and warranty it for "money back or similar", a number a bit over $10K would surely be reasonable.

Putting the car back together for around $10K with a solid powerplant should be the goal, if BMW forces you to bear the brunt of this unusual failure.

Anita · 28th March 2006, 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDClown

Please request a complete copy of the bulletin, or at the very least, the SIB number. I'm sure all of us would like to read it.

It's going to be more specficit hen "MY02", as in, it will list a range of effected VIN's, and the full details.

I have a feeling whoever you spoke with at BMWNA is confusing this with the E46 M3 SIB's for bearings. If this SIB really exists for M5 owners, then I would have expected to see a lot of talk about it on this forum.

The E46 M3 SIB is not a recall either. Recall's require a totally different action process (and lots of extra $$) by the NTSB. When they just issue it as a bulletin, it saves cash. This is why they did it this way for the E46 M3's. But, just because it's not a recall, it was still something every owner was entitled too and given if their VIN was in the range. So this is why I'd like to see the SIB.

Side note: Sat at my dealer's yesterday while the SA searched for an SIB related to bearings and even tapping noises, etc. He even expanded his search to include all E39's and couldn't find anything. He did however say there still could be an issue and that he might not have the most up to date/complete info.
So if anyone else can track an SIB/additonal info down, that would be great!
Thanks!