cosioboy

Guys, wanted to get your thoughts on headers as I am coming real close to pulling the trigger.

First question relates to brand. I was pretty convinced SuperSprint is the way to go (IMO no need to pay double or more for Dinan/Hamann, etc.), but searching through some threads revealed I should perhaps do more research on the RDS header (RD Sport, Racing Dynamics S.p.A). Back when Beastpower was a sponsor, there was a group buy and would love to hear what folks that have purchased the RD headers have to say about their experience.

Today I spoke with the company at length (RD US offices are located in Cali). As far as pricing, much to my surprise, they are considerably cheaper than Supersprint (counting the connector pipe that is needed and SS charges extra for). I do mean RDs Tubular exhaust (not the Sport exhaust which is more or less a stock replacement and offers little hp gain). I've seen some older threads mentioning fitment issues (particularly on 00MY), the company rep admitted this was the case for their 1st generation headers, which had been tested on used M5s, which had exhibited 'some wear', such that the 'sagging' engine mounts resulted in a 'slightly' imperfect design (causing fitment and at times rubbing issues). He assured me that the current, 3rd generation design, suffers from no flaws and fitment will not be an issue. Hmmm... You will see that statement on their product description, here is their E39 M5 page. Good to browse through as they offer various other mods (velocity stacks, software, etc.): http://www.racdyn.com/Localized/Inte..._E39_Motor.htm

Much related to my choice of headers will be the software, which is pretty much mandatory. Again, should I go the SS way, I will go with Powerchip/Evosport. However, RD have their own software. In fact, they have two of them. The more 'advanced' one I am told not only remaps the ECU in a way similar to what Powerchip does, but actually has a custom algorithm for the Vanos. Allegedly, that has been developed in conjunction with BMW Motorsports and adds 28 hp, versus the 'regular' remap which adds about 9 or so. Perhaps Brad@Evosport or PC can comment on the truthfulness/falacy of the statement and offer some more technical insight? Can I go with Ppowerchip/Evosport software should I choose the RDS tubular header?

My second query relates to coating - should I or shouldn't I? I've seen some discussion floating around on the topic of coating the headers for better heat resistance, and improved horsepower. Ceramic seems to be one option, but most folks seem to have opted for the JET-HOT powder coating solution (silver/chrome/nickel). Not sure how much the ceramic coating is, but one can get the Jet-HOT powder coating for about $280 + shipping seen here on Beastpower's website.
http://www.beastpower.com/Merchant2/...HEAD-COAT-1300

There are some folks on the Board that have opted for this (Mike, Jerry, your thoughts are appreciated). For whatever it is worth, RDS recommended against it (meaning put that money in another mod). Thx

gsfent

I think Jet coating is worth the investment. It is always done on FI cars to keep the heat inside for gas flow. Others more knowledgeable can comment, but from all my years around cars and racing, I have always understood the coating process is desireable. I paid about $300, so $$$ seems right. Most other installers recommend it, and since they send it out to be done, I don't think it is a sales gimmick.

You can read old threads on RD headers. I never used them so I can't comment. However, the SS headers work exactly as advertised. The spring on the flange is very clever, and helps prevent cracking from heat distortion as the header heats up and cools down each cycle.

The fit was great, except for the adapter pipes I bought to use with the stock cat back. My installer spent enough time tweaking them where it may not have been worth it, although the vendor (D/A) said I was the first to "complain" (really just to inform Bill, it wasn't a big deal, all installs should have that minor issue as the biggest problem). I would still get the pipes, measure before using and if not right, just have them take them back if unused.

Dyno supports claims, about 30rwhp. Since I did the UD pullies at the same time, 1 or 2 hp could be attributable to that. I got a total of 31 rwhp, right in line with expectations.

As to software, PC made a big improvement over the Dinan software I had when I got my car. Reflash $$$ to PC for adding headers was nominal (need to richen to offset better breathing out the exhaust). If RD has software that addes more hp, have them post the dyno runs. Also, ask how the software adjusts the VANOs to make sure it does not prematurely wear it out, since we know VANOS repair is not cheap. If they found a better moustrap, they have been keeping it a pretty good secret.

BTW, SS made the Hamann headers, so you are right, no need to pay more for Hamann. SS is 4 into 1, Dinan 4 into 2 into 1. In theory, Dinan would make a little more midrange torque, SS more high end. Given the torque curve of the motor being about as flat as Nebraska, no real world difference. I added taller gears at the same time, and the car pulls way better in any gear at any rpm than before the header install and I can be effectively one gear taller, and pull from lower rpm. To me, that is a real world benefit in addition to the measured gains.

Have fun, it is a great addtion to the car. I did UD pulleys at the same time, and it came out great.

Regards,
Jerry

__________________
'01 Black/caramel
Dinan Stage3 suspension and CAI, SS jet coated headers, Evosport UD pulley kit, IATS, PC Gold 93, open brake ducts, Hamann front splitters, TEC cupholder, Euro tilt/slide armrest, 6k HID fogs, 6k super white low beams, V1/Stealth1, 2.65 diff w/40% lockup/2x dynamic, Rogue custom SSK and tranny mounts, ST 355 BBK (fronts), BP sway bar brackets, Bluetooth retrofit

Garissimo

For those with aftermarket headers, is there an increase in cabin noise with these high flow headers?

mottati

i had my supersprint headers ceramic coated. That is what discovery automotive recommended, to help keep heat in the piping to both reduce underhood temps and increase cat efficiency. I had one spring break, which resulted in a bit of an exhaust leak. Bill from discovery fed exed me a new one, no charge, and that is that. I hope that will not be a regular occurance.

I dyno'd my car with a friend who has dinan headers. My car lost a bit of low end torque/hp compared to stock with the headers (about 10hp, 15lbs ft torque in the 2300-3000 rpm range). His dinan header'd car made more torque than stock (it was substantial, around 20-25lbs ft) in the same rev range. We were withing a couple hp at the top end so i do believe the rationale for the dinan design. Is it worth double the money? That's a tougher answer.

In contrast to Jerry's experience, i had powerchip done at the same time as the headers, and 6 months or so later, i added dinan mafs and their stage 4 software. The car was noticably stronger at the bottom end and mid range, yet still pulls hard at the top, so i am happier with the dinan software from a seat of the pants standpoint. I haven't gotten to a dyno yet to proove my feelings.

At the time, there was a lot of install trouble with the rd headers, which is why most of us went with the SS system.
Mike

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Mike
00 M5 Ti Silver; Imola/black sportiv
Engine:
Supersprint Headers, Dinan CAI kit and MAFS, Throttle Bodies, Cams, Ported heads, Exhaust, Custom dinan software, Evosport Pullies, Dinan clutch and lightened flywheel; Ignition solutions plasma coils
Suspension:
Dinan Stage 3 with front and rear Strut Tower Braces, Beastpower Sway bar brackets, Dinan Wheels with 275/285 PilotSport, X5 Thrust arm bushings, Stoptech 355mm 4 piston front, 355mm 2 piston rear brake kit, Dinan 3.45 diff
Interior/Misc:
Eurodash, updated steering wheel, Bluetooth retrofit, Sirius Retrofit, hardwired V1, Widescreen Mk4 nav, M audio retrofit, Ice Link, BSW Stage 1 speaker upgrade, bmw towbar

91 M5 Alpine White II, Silver Gray 3/90 production
17x8/17x9 Turbines with PS2, 20mm touring roll bar; Fahey Suspension with SLS elimination; EAT Chip, CD43; work in progress

mottati

Yes, in my experience with the supersprints there is. (at least in my car). I constantly feel like i have a very slight exhaust leak, which neither I nor any shop i've been to can find. I attribute this to the supersprint multipiece design. Not a huge issue, but very slightly anoying to me.
Like others have said, if the costs were the same, or money were no object, i'd go with dinan.
I wouldn't expect this with the one piece rd sports, and i have been in dinan cars which do not have much added noise.
Mike

cosioboy

I am leaning more and more in favor of the SS. While speaking to what appears to be the only RDS rep (and owner) here in the US, while knowledgeable, I haven't been able to obtain the level of comfort needed to go ahead with them, especially their software. I am a bit hesitant to go with a company with little infrastructure and support (here in the US at least), despite having many of their earlier issues seemingly addressed with the 3rd generation design. Appreciate the feedback and PM I got from some early users.

Surprisingly, Evosport has stopped carrying the Supersprint line, allegedly due to 'issues related to the E46 M3'. Not quite sure what that meant, didn't go into details with them over the phone. Interesting to say the least, as they were one of the first endorsers of the SS lineup and have been mentioned in many prominent magazines (e.g. European Car on modding the E39 M5). Yet again, Beastpower offers the most competitive pricing...

And while I am at it, I have decided to coat them, most likely through this company called JET HOT.

One of the few open items remains software, although I have my mind more or less set. As a Powerchip alternative, any of you boys have thoughts on the AA software? It's priced exactly as the Powerchip, but haven't heard many reviews yet since it is fairly new I believe, so advantage goes to PC unless I hear of overwhelming responses to the contrary.

Blue Thunder

I had JET HOT coat my headers and race cats. While their work was done well they missed their scheduled delivery by weeks. So be sure to allow sufficient time

__________________
1999 M5 Avus Blau Metallic
Twin Rotrex superchargers, Front mount intercooler, Steel sleeved block, Forged CP pistons, 10.5:1 compression, SS Headers, SS race cats, TUBI Rumore,
UUC 11" V12 cerametallic clutch + flywheel, UUC EVO3 SSK w/DSSR, Brembo GT4 brakes front/back, KWv3's, Angel Eyes + Angelibrights, Celis
19" Hamann PG2´s, Strongstrut front Strut Brace, BMW fire extinguisher, Phatbox MP3 player, CF interior trim
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2417213/1

1989 E30 M3 White - track toy
S50B32 with a supercharger - 470 hp, 1300kg rocket for the Ring

cosioboy

Thanks for the input. I was told that if the headers are in stock (which they are), it takes 'about' 5 days. Is it perhaps that you were waiting for the headers to arrive or maybe that you are overseas and they didn't ship them air mail? Will push them though. Cheers

Blue Thunder

Actually, they got the headers and race cats on October 19th. They sent me an email asking for permission to disassemble the headers (they were used). I sent an email with permission the next day, October 20th.

They shipped the headers and race cats on November 20th and I received them on November 24th.

A bit more than 5 days

E55AMG2

mike,

Ive actually had the same problem with another tuner (for nissans) that was based in california. It seems to be the difference in climate, altitude, and available fuel between FL and CA.