mokushiroku

To all the M5 owners listen up. Maybe this will shed light on the future of your precious M5. I was once a proud owner of the Fastest Luxury Sedan in the world. The veil has been taken off and the truth has been revealed. This rare car we all relish in is nothing more then a ticking time bomb. Why does he say this do you ask? My friend is a Certified BMW tech that has trained and worked on these M5’s extensively for 30 years. He agrees there is a major flaw in the reliability of this engine. He has won several awards from BMW before leaving the company to pursue other endeavor’s. The car despite its elegant lines and performance of a Ferrari have a fatal flaw. I have had cars in the past with issues, like blowing the tranni on a 911, or blowing up the rear end of my Corvette. Never, and I say never have I encountered a problem like I did with this M5.

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I hate to say this but its “The Ultimate money guzzling machine.” I was not aware of the Vanos issues this car has. If you searched this forum for Vanos failure or oil leaks it will really surprise you. This is a serious problem that BMW refuses to recognize on their prize gem. They don’t want to admit that their precious baby has a fatal recurring flaw. I would understand if this was a freak occurrence, but ITS NOT. Not just the research but also certain BMW mechanics no longer under the yolk of BMW have attested to this. I have seen 100’s of examples of the Vanos failure on the E39 M5. If it hasn’t happened to you, just wait. Whether it was under warranty at 10,000 miles or at 70,000 miles like mine. There is no excuse for a $10,000 repair not related to replacing the engine for a car of this statute. I know **** well the E55 does not have any kind of Vanos issues. They have had their problems, but as I can see their cars runs much better then BMW. The problem is the beauty and sophistication of this engine. I hate to say it, but I miss my Meat and potatoes days. My old 96 vette with the Lt4 engine may have been a simple 350, but they just seem more reliable. My hat is off to the ridiculous efforts of the Motor ports guys for taking an F1 engine and throwing it in a sedan. They forget one important rule when doing this. The engine’s roots come from a million dollar car designed to run the 24 Le-mans not every day driving. A perfect example is the issue with the new E60’s Vanos line failure. The car is brand new and is already having problems. BMW is becoming a Mercedes in their pursuit for all automatic cars. SMG, AMG is there really a difference? Its sad really, The Ultimate driving machine is no longer there. I said it once and I will say it again, not letting some computer assisted squirrel sequential transmission do all the driving. Therefore BMW becomes no better then a Mercedes. I can’t imagine what the cost will be in 6 years when the warranty is up on that silly intricate 7-speed tranni. I bet people will be selling their second cars to pay for the SMG. Then the looks are another story. If the majority of the community has to adjust to the E60, then something is wrong. I am sure as hell not going to buy a car for a 100 grand and have to adjust to its looks. Whether or not its mechanics are beyond perfect is not the issue. What good is driving fast if you can’t look good doing it? Compare the CL 55 to the E60 on looks and even performance and the Mercedes walks away with the Cover of Sports Illustrated. I have said my peace on this already. I am getting off track. That’s another story, but kind of related.



Furthermore, the integrity of the E39 is at risk. Now that it is 2006 those M5’s that are not garage queens are easing closer to the 100,000 mark. Now things are becoming quite apparent on the longevity of the S62 engine. I remember when the E34 and E28 cars could run into the 300,000-mile range, some on the original clutch if you can believe this. If your car has 150,000 miles consider yourself a good driver and really lucky, but for the most part there are too many of these Vanos failures to just let slip through the cracks. One of your members Steve from Alabama has his sitting at the dealer with a $10,000 vanos fix me on it. There is gentleman in Detroit that has the same issue with his. There is one from Sweden, another from South America. I could name 100 more, but you get the idea. Do the research if you don’t believe me. This is not an issue of someone crying on the forum about a problem that can’t be fixed. Remember there is a handful of these cars on the planet, and I believe more than 60% of them have Vanos issues. Not to mention the annoying clutch that is as weak as a 525i, actually same clutch. How can that be? I am not going to even touch on Carbon Build up and the severity of the cost.



Bottom line I spent thousands in misdiagnosed problems from the dealership to find the answer to this problem. Its not the oil separators its not the Solenoid O-rings, so save your money and sell your M5 unless you enjoy renting cars and spending money on something BMW should compensate for, warranty or not. I am just lucky the engine didn’t go thermonuclear on me. The remaining members that choose to keep their M5’s need to research this issue extensively and go to BMW corporate with a lawsuit. Don’t try to tell me there is always going to be maintenance in expensive autos. My Porsche has no problems nearly related to anything this monumental. I could blow the 3.6-liter engine and have it rebuilt for less then the Vanos system on the M5. My corvette I could put through a tree and have about the same cost as a Vanos replacement. What good is the S62 engine if the dealer won’t rebuild it? They just send you a bill for $25,000 and a new vanos headache.



I am really sad that my attitude towards BMW has taken a 180. I am lost forever to BMW. Especially now the new series has no more passion then a pair of titmice? My words of disdain will spread like a virus throughout the automotive industry and hopefully BMW will be affected by this negative repore. I attend the Sema and Ces show every year here in Vegas and I will tell the tales of the 400hp and 500hp rambler. A beautiful car with the life expectancy of a dog, if that. Join the Porsche Forums and try to find an issue equivalent to this Vanos issue. Agree with me or not, you cannot deny the validity of these issues. My M5 is now gone. I am sad but relieved of the burden





Good-bye and good luck to all,



Justin





RIP M5



To the days when the youth showed no signs of this Cancerous life sucking engine management system called the Vanos.

mokushiroku

JUST IN CASE YOU THINK I PULLING THIS OUT OF A HAT. CHECK OUT WHAT OTHER MEMBERS HAVE SAID IN REGARDS TO THIS. AND NO I HAVE NEVER WORKED FOR BMW, SO I AM NOT A PISSED OFF EMPLOYEE. JUST A COMSUMER HELL BENT ON STOPPING THESE KINDS OF INJUSTICE.

Steve is a prime example of this check out his forum on the issue

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I have slightly over 100k miles on E39. I was told several months ago that I needed to replace both VANOS units by BMW dealership. I was and still am getting oil leaks from air intakes right and left. I did not have repair done but got PC valves & hoses replaced.

I continued to drive vehicle in hopes that repair would fix problem. It did not. I am not getting any VANOS noise or hardly any. The oil continues to leak from air intake. The vehicle performs flawlessly with substantial power and there are no engine service lights coming on but with oil leaks continuing and armed with information from this site, I returned the Beast to BMW dealership.

I talked with service adviser yesterday. Their continued assessment is to replace both VANOS units. However, now I am being told that 4 cylinders are showing loss of compression and indicating ring replacements. I am schedule to discuss with mechanic and service adviser again today. We are talking about $8,000 to $10,000 if all this is necessary.

David S or anyone else have an opinion on the ring issue??? I think I have seen all the VANOS advice. How can the vehicle be running so great and they come up with this issue. Puzzled and Ticked Off!!

Steve Drinkard


Sikand Scary

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From what I have been reading, compared to S38 cars, the V8's are ticking time bombs. Carbon buildup issue, major oil leaks and Vanos failures. I can't tell if this is 00 MY specific or if things got better for 2003. Either way, I am scared since 8-10K appears to be the average cost for each of these problems.

M5 meeyatch

Threads like this scare me. My wife and I are looking to possibly start a family in the next two years, and I had thought that the E39 M5 would be the perfect family car, but now I am not so sure. I drive my cars quite a bit on 1,500 mile + rount trip drives between Indianapolis, Indiana and Barrie, Ontario and want to have a bulletproof reliable car. How many M5 owners are having these serious issues? Please pardon my newness, as I am just trying to learn more in order to make a correct buying decision.


Phillip

Sadly I have to say that although I've not experienced any of these problems on my 11/1999 build, I'm at 16K miles and beleive you in what's ahead for me and most others. I've concluded that leasing is the only direction left for me and BMW. Give it back when it's off warrentee and let it be the problem of someone else.

ilandbear

I agree with DavidS's second paragraph. I have had this problem and it is a known problem that is listed in the BMW service records. In my case it was a leaking Vanos seal. It cost $2,400 to fix because they change the entire vanos. No use just changing the seal since it is damaged, the metal parts in the vanos have been damaged and will destroy a new seal in a few miles.
Fortunately for me, BMW decided to pay for the Vanos so I got away with 15% of the cost (labor). It is usually the right hand side (looking at the engine from the front) that leaks according to BMW. Don't ask me why. My car is a 2001. It had 50.000 Km (31.000 miles) on the clock at the time.


Pete

This is interesting. Last September I had right Vanos unit replaced with new one. After it was installed, both Vanos gears were rattling, no rattle when car was taken in by the way.

My tech called BMWNA and was told to install repair kit of 4 toothed shafts and updated springs for gears. After this I now again have no Vanos niose coming from the car at any time. This procedure was done to both Vanos units at that time.

Is this the repair kit you refer to?

It already had the "rattle at startup" issue addressed previously.

I cannot quote a cost because this and other work was done by BMW under some sort of goodwill gesture thing. The car had only 25K miles on it and was just 1.5 months out of warranty.
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2000 M5..."The Precious"...yup, the wife named it......Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for dinner. LIBERTY is an armed lamb contesting the vote.


M5 in Md

Also want to 2nd the thanks for a great post. I've had a mixed history with the Vanos units (both replaced since I've had the car) and while I don't know if the accumulator has been installed, there is almost no rattle at startup. The only rattle I have is from the UUC aftermarket clutch at 1500 rpm!


Turbo Carrerra AKA Steve

My production date 6/00 sounded like a quiet diesel from new until one of the cam sensors failed in '03. The dealer did some unspecified VANOS work while the car was in for the cam sensor ($2200, but under warranty, no charge to me). Since then the car has been very quiet, no diesel sounds at all.

All in all I think the VANOS system adds a lot of complication to the engine for relatively little HP gain. I also drive a 99 911 and rarely hear of any failures with the Porsche Vario system.




There is so many more posts and issues relatiing to this faulty Vanos system I could go on for pages.

mokushiroku

more members



showmeM5

JUST HAD THE DRIVERS SIDE VANOS REPLACED BECAUSE THE SES LIGHT WAS COMING ON. I DID NOT NOTICE ANY POWER LOSS, OR DID I NOTICE ANY GAINS AFTER THE $4,300.00 SERVICE. WHAT DRIVES ME CRAZY NOW IS THAT THE SES LIGHT IS ON AGAIN.....A WEEK LATER.
WHAT I DO NOTICE IS THAT AT SOME TIMES THE ENGINE ROARS LIKE IT HAS AN AFTERMARKET EXHAUST ON IT AND IT SOUNDS RATHER HEALTHY....BUT AFTER A WHILE OF DRIVING THE SOUND GOES BACK TO SUBDUED. I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IS GOING ON. I NOTICED SOMEONE SAY THAT AUTOZONE CAN PULL THE CODES TO TELL ME WHAT MAY BE WRONG. IS THIS CORRECT?


Evil Vanos (appropriate member name)


This happened to me BUT BMW said that my VANOS units were the problem after REPLACING the units, 2 coils, cam pos sensor and crank pos sensor, the fault was still there, the MAFs were then replaced and the car was fixed,Replace the MAFs first BUY them off the FORUM and save $$$$$ then try the Cam sensor Your local BMW garage WONT do that first they will just replace the most expensive part first good luck mate
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Imolaman

Hi Rich,

Had both symptoms, at different times with my beast. To solve the problem with limp mode, change your MAF's, as said by Frits. My dealership would not listen to me, ended up changing both CAT's (at a cost of approx. $10 000 for the pair, amounted to almost ZAR 50 000 here in South Africa) problem remained until I told them to stop wasting their money and my time (they changed all the O2 sensors as well) and just change the MAF's. Insofar as the coarse exhaust note goes, I had mine fixed by changing the camshaft positioning sensor, a cheap part but took mechanic at dealership quite a few hours to replace.

Be careful of additives. Our cars are filled with Castrol TWS Motorsport Oil (quite special and **** expensive) and I'm told it does not mix well with additives.

Keep an eye on your knock sensor if you suspect poor fuel quality.

Hope this helps mate.

Rudi


TrackStar

I am looking at a 2000 M5 that I am seriously considering buying, waiting for a friend to inspect it for me tomorrow. The car has ~75k miles on it and the price is right. The owner, who was extremely thorough and attentive to details (brought the car in for every little thing), has extensive service records (I got copies from the SA), all under warranty and nearly all within the last 10k miles, including:

removal of heads for cleaning and recondition (carbon build up)
new clutch
new dash pixels (twice)
both MAFS replaced
replaced all lifters (2 lifters not pressurizing)
replaced blower resistor
replaced PS lines

also, in trying to fix a noise, the dealer:
updated VANOS springs and spline shafts "also 1-4 VANOS unit" (noise still present) >> replaced both bank 1 exhaust manifolds (noise still present) >> replace left side cylinder head, lifters and valves >> "noise now gone"

I don't know how to feel about all this. I'm glad the car is well documented. I can look at this one of two ways:
1) Every known issue with these cars has already been addressed, BUY IT.
2) This car is cursed and has had every problem ever attributed to M5's and will likely continue to have problems, STAY AWAY.


0to60


I dropped off the beast because I was having loss of power issues. At times the car felt as if its running on only 4 cylinders and did not sound right! I get a call back from the dealer and they say the codes that come up are the CAM ANGLE SENSOR BANK TWO and a VANOS fault. The dealer sais that they are just going to replace the sensor first and see if the VANOS still give a fault code. The technician claims that a bad sensor can set off a VANOS fault. Is this true? It sounds to me like they are too lazy to replace the VANOS unit and just want to patch fix the car???? Any thoughts would be great.


Richard from NY


So many things have gone on with my beast the last month, I don't know where to start or how many threads to open.

First, the Inspection II was done 2 months ago. I asked for a few other problems to be fixed as well at the time. By the time they got fixed, more issues popped up. Plus I was wanting to do various upgrades. Here goes the list and their current status.

Auto dimming mirror: Mine was covered under the CPO! It took them 3 times to order the right replacement but it's finally fixed!

Washer jet: I had a weak one. It is fixed.

The A/C fan speed became sporadic. They replaced the final stage resistor. So far, everything was covered with the 1 CPO deductable.

Rear diff oil leak. I've got a minor drip where the right rear axle attaches to the diff. They were checking whether this is covered under CPO.

I needed new pads. While deciding which to get, the pad sensor went off. Several folks recommended the Hawk HPS for the street for better performance and less dust. I got them put on. They squealed like crazy until 2 bedding in sessions. They still squeal a bit. A 3rd bedding in session didn't help. Now that I spent the money, some say "Oh yes, they do squeal sometimes". I'm not sold the HPS are better performing on the street either. It took an extra week to get in replacement pad sensors. BMW charges double the internet price! But they weren't in stock where I tried, and paid the $tealer cost to get rid of the stupid warnings.

I ordered Hawk HT-10 for the track. I'll let you know how good they are after VIR on 12/03-04. I've got the brake ducts and use ATS high temp fluid. I've got high expectations.

I've debated for a year over suspension upgrades. I settled for only doing shocks. The Koni-sports just went on today. I did the 1 turn from full soft front, 3/4 turn rear as discussed in many threads. So far they are great. They fixed a floaty feel from worn shocks and give a nice firmness to the ride & handling without being harsh. I haven't pushed the car hard enough to know how much I really like them Of course, I took a twisty road home today but had to follow an idiot 5-10 under the limit. The only downside is I'll have to deal with a few rattles that may sound off more often now. The dealership hasn't found a few I've reported in 3 tries.

BTW, my only other suspension mod is a Dinan rear sway bar. It is in the outside setting.

I had a funny looseness to the front over certain bumpy roads. I suspected bushings but think the shocks fixed it. More time behind the wheel will better decide this. I have no brake shudder before or after the new pads.

New track tires. For now I'm sticking with the Kumho VictoRacers. I'm used to their feel and reactions at the limit. I had to replace the fronts only this time. I debated long over adjustable camber plates to solve the tire wear issue but there seems to be downsides to any setup with the stock springs.

Overall I'm pleased with the upgrades but will likely go back to stock pads on the street if the squealing doesn't get better.

Believe it or not, there's one more thing. I got an SES light the other morning. It's gone out but I've noticed a throatier growl to lower RPMs at times. Today it was real noticeable. I like the sound but is that a sign I'm headed for VANOS problems?

I feel I've visited quite a few of the M5 ownership nuances in just a few months. I guess that's better than being bored to ***** owning a Camry.


ARD


Hey Steve-

First post and a doosey...

Do some reading:

Vanos noise and What to do about it

This is a VERY common problem on the 00s, and many have had it addressed much earlier in their lives. As you will read a good many owners have had 'goodwill'. Your mileage is problematic. I'd still give it a shot (longtime customer, original owner, loyal, blah, blah, blah)

It strikes me that the $$s you are being quoted seem way high. From my quick read, it sounds labor intensive, but 10k is 100 hours!

Good luck.

(PS Anyone know if a good independent close to Montgo AL?? Might be time to leave the $stealership if they won't go to bat for you...)



Aleve8

had mine replaced under warranty at 20,000 miles, both units.



JAJ

Steve

There are two kinds of VANOS problems that happen most often. One is "they don't work properly" and it's expensive to fix because you have to replace the VANOS units with new ones. They may or may not be noisy.

The second problem (I've had two M5's and I've had both problems, by the way) involves a failure of the O-ring seals between the VANOS units and the cylinder head. Oil leaks up into the air plenum, forms a pool, and then drains down and out through the air filters, like you are reporting.

While it's still not "cheap" to fix the second problem, it's 'way less than replacing the VANOS units (if the engine runs ok then they're probably working fine).

I hope this helps!



Basil


I asked for my VANOS unit back after having a new one installed but I was told that there is some sort of core swap. I assume that they are sent back to BMW if that's true.

You do have to ask yourself why someone would be selling a single VANOS. If it was a good unit then why wouldn't it be left in the engine - unless someone had a bad one replaced and decided to go ahead and replace the other. Still, it's kind of strange since there is no (or hardly any) overlapping labor involved.



M5Lust

T-Man

some ppl sound not buy performance car at all, if u think it's gong to last as long as a honda civic think agian!!!! 70K on a 400hp high performance car w.some cost to upkeep it is nothing!!!! trhing to own a ferrari!!!

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mokushiroku

exactly my point! Ferrari's are barely good past 50,000 miles. I didn't buy a Ferrari, I bought a BMW M5. $10,000.00 for one repair is not considered upkeep. The Vanos issus are present on 10k and 100k miles. I think I will drive a Honda Civic then, lol. If a car worth what I payed for my rims outlasts German Engineering then shame on BMW.

ard

Dude, take a breath... You're cutting and pasting unrelated info and lumping this into a 'sky is falling' scenario because YOUR car had a problem!

I never had a vanos failure... richard simply says "do I have a vanos problem?"...

If you want to raise a question, fine- but posts like this will be ignored.

Sorry

A

mokushiroku

I am jussed a little pissed at the back BMW has turned to this issue. The VANOS is an ongoing issue with the M5's. Your lucky, but it could happen to you. All this info is related to the Vanos. If you read the whole POST on RICHARD you will see the Vanos Issue. Ignorance is bliss for you then my friend. I would sure like to know if this is going to happen to my M5.

Regards

J Irwan

As you own a particular and actively visit the forum you will find more problem... obviously...

Try the porsche with its notorious rear main seal leak..$$$, and W210 E55 with their transmission, also on Mercedes the A/C condensor know to leak and the blower motor to squeak.... etc..etc..... C32 with S/C heat soaked (faulty S/C water pump unit), W211 E55Kompressor problem with S/C magnetic clutch result in limp mode... etc..etc..

each car, whatever brand has their own problems... I could go on and on about mercedes and some of porsche problems (as I previously I own Mercedes....and at the time I was looking for another AMG, S4 V-8, M5, and 996... so I have read some of their problem....as well.....)

And about Ferrari, well...maybe most of the owner has much deeper pocket and never complaint...and at worst what they can do is just dump the car and get a new one

I know troubleshooting a problem that is not very obvious can be very unpleasant and upsetting especially when you no longer have any warranty.....


just my $0.02


Regardz,

J Irwan

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02 Carbon Black ///M5

mokushiroku

The rear main seal leak is easy to diagnose problem that happens on a lot 911's including mine. Thats funny you should mention this. It wasn't nearly as costly as fixing the Vanos, and it is on a much more prominant car. Then onto the W210 transmission failure. Once again the cost is around $3400.00 to fix this issue. I am a member of the Mercedes Forum as well. And in regards to the SC/Heat Soak issue, not really that common, and cost to fix around $2000.00. All of these are bad issues indeed with these high end cars, but they don't come close to the severity and cost of replacing Vanos Units.

Evil Vanos

This is exactly the reason BMW has always denied a fault with VANOS,a member(mokushiroku) makes a VALIED point about a PROBLEM that HAS been more than WELL documented on this site by other SENIOR members and the first TWO replies he receives are ones going against what hes posted and another slagging Porches off We should stick together I've not had a problem with my clutch but can see that there is an Issue with it,back bite ting and giving out posts saying "oh there's nothing wrong with mine so there isnt a problem" is not the right attitude to have did you know a BRAND NEW s62 engine from BMW is "only" £12,000 $22,000 so why dose the vanos cost half of a full engine there is a problem with VANOS that could be related to the MAF's should we say nothing do nothing? I love my car but its now SIX years old and Im not paying any less for the running of the car if anything its costing more and more,David S anyone please lets get something done about this weather it be we give our Vin Numbers to a member who then writes a letter to BMW telling them the problems we have endured with Vanos,MAF's ,CPS the lads on the E60 are doing something about there lack of the LC system on their cars I haven't even got an E60 and I dont live in the US but Im STILL willing to back or help out in any way this should have been done by the ORIGANL owners of the E39 M5 but it wasnt and now we have the responsibility of dealing with this we need to do somthing,we have this web site thanks to like minded M5 owners new and old who have at one time or another suffered the ridiculous prices BMW charge for everything(£211 each for a CONSUMABLE part MAF's)lets use it to its full extent and get something done please

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