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Vanos issues (long rant)

119K views 122 replies 41 participants last post by  MPOWDER 
#1 ·
ALL M5 MEMBERS SHOULD READ THIS! WIDESPREAD VANOS ISSUES COSTLY REPAIR DESIGN FAULT!

To all the M5 owners listen up. Maybe this will shed light on the future of your precious M5. I was once a proud owner of the Fastest Luxury Sedan in the world. The veil has been taken off and the truth has been revealed. This rare car we all relish in is nothing more then a ticking time bomb. Why does he say this do you ask? My friend is a Certified BMW tech that has trained and worked on these M5’s extensively for 30 years. He agrees there is a major flaw in the reliability of this engine. He has won several awards from BMW before leaving the company to pursue other endeavor’s. The car despite its elegant lines and performance of a Ferrari have a fatal flaw. I have had cars in the past with issues, like blowing the tranni on a 911, or blowing up the rear end of my Corvette. Never, and I say never have I encountered a problem like I did with this M5.

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I hate to say this but its “The Ultimate money guzzling machine.” I was not aware of the Vanos issues this car has. If you searched this forum for Vanos failure or oil leaks it will really surprise you. This is a serious problem that BMW refuses to recognize on their prize gem. They don’t want to admit that their precious baby has a fatal recurring flaw. I would understand if this was a freak occurrence, but ITS NOT. Not just the research but also certain BMW mechanics no longer under the yolk of BMW have attested to this. I have seen 100’s of examples of the Vanos failure on the E39 M5. If it hasn’t happened to you, just wait. Whether it was under warranty at 10,000 miles or at 70,000 miles like mine. There is no excuse for a $10,000 repair not related to replacing the engine for a car of this statute. I know **** well the E55 does not have any kind of Vanos issues. They have had their problems, but as I can see their cars runs much better then BMW. The problem is the beauty and sophistication of this engine. I hate to say it, but I miss my Meat and potatoes days. My old 96 vette with the Lt4 engine may have been a simple 350, but they just seem more reliable. My hat is off to the ridiculous efforts of the Motor ports guys for taking an F1 engine and throwing it in a sedan. They forget one important rule when doing this. The engine’s roots come from a million dollar car designed to run the 24 Le-mans not every day driving. A perfect example is the issue with the new E60’s Vanos line failure. The car is brand new and is already having problems. BMW is becoming a Mercedes in their pursuit for all automatic cars. SMG, AMG is there really a difference? Its sad really, The Ultimate driving machine is no longer there. I said it once and I will say it again, not letting some computer assisted squirrel sequential transmission do all the driving. Therefore BMW becomes no better then a Mercedes. I can’t imagine what the cost will be in 6 years when the warranty is up on that silly intricate 7-speed tranni. I bet people will be selling their second cars to pay for the SMG. Then the looks are another story. If the majority of the community has to adjust to the E60, then something is wrong. I am sure as hell not going to buy a car for a 100 grand and have to adjust to its looks. Whether or not its mechanics are beyond perfect is not the issue. What good is driving fast if you can’t look good doing it? Compare the CL 55 to the E60 on looks and even performance and the Mercedes walks away with the Cover of Sports Illustrated. I have said my peace on this already. I am getting off track. That’s another story, but kind of related.

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Furthermore, the integrity of the E39 is at risk. Now that it is 2006 those M5’s that are not garage queens are easing closer to the 100,000 mark. Now things are becoming quite apparent on the longevity of the S62 engine. I remember when the E34 and E28 cars could run into the 300,000-mile range, some on the original clutch if you can believe this. If your car has 150,000 miles consider yourself a good driver and really lucky, but for the most part there are too many of these Vanos failures to just let slip through the cracks. One of your members Steve from Alabama has his sitting at the dealer with a $10,000 vanos fix me on it. There is gentleman in Detroit that has the same issue with his. There is one from Sweden, another from South America. I could name 100 more, but you get the idea. Do the research if you don’t believe me. This is not an issue of someone crying on the forum about a problem that can’t be fixed. Remember there is a handful of these cars on the planet, and I believe more than 60% of them have Vanos issues. Not to mention the annoying clutch that is as weak as a 525i, actually same clutch. How can that be? I am not going to even touch on Carbon Build up and the severity of the cost.

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Bottom line I spent thousands in misdiagnosed problems from the dealership to find the answer to this problem. Its not the oil separators its not the Solenoid O-rings, so save your money and sell your M5 unless you enjoy renting cars and spending money on something BMW should compensate for, warranty or not. I am just lucky the engine didn’t go thermonuclear on me. The remaining members that choose to keep their M5’s need to research this issue extensively and go to BMW corporate with a lawsuit. Don’t try to tell me there is always going to be maintenance in expensive autos. My Porsche has no problems nearly related to anything this monumental. I could blow the 3.6-liter engine and have it rebuilt for less then the Vanos system on the M5. My corvette I could put through a tree and have about the same cost as a Vanos replacement. What good is the S62 engine if the dealer won’t rebuild it? They just send you a bill for $25,000 and a new vanos headache.

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I am really sad that my attitude towards BMW has taken a 180. I am lost forever to BMW. Especially now the new series has no more passion then a pair of titmice? My words of disdain will spread like a virus throughout the automotive industry and hopefully BMW will be affected by this negative repore. I attend the Sema and Ces show every year here in Vegas and I will tell the tales of the 400hp and 500hp rambler. A beautiful car with the life expectancy of a dog, if that. Join the Porsche Forums and try to find an issue equivalent to this Vanos issue. Agree with me or not, you cannot deny the validity of these issues. My M5 is now gone. I am sad but relieved of the burden

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Good-bye and good luck to all,

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Justin

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RIP M5

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To the days when the youth showed no signs of this Cancerous life sucking engine management system called the Vanos.

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#2 ·
JUST IN CASE YOU THINK I PULLING THIS OUT OF A HAT. CHECK OUT WHAT OTHER MEMBERS HAVE SAID IN REGARDS TO THIS. AND NO I HAVE NEVER WORKED FOR BMW, SO I AM NOT A PISSED OFF EMPLOYEE. JUST A COMSUMER HELL BENT ON STOPPING THESE KINDS OF INJUSTICE.

Steve is a prime example of this check out his forum on the issue

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I have slightly over 100k miles on E39. I was told several months ago that I needed to replace both VANOS units by BMW dealership. I was and still am getting oil leaks from air intakes right and left. I did not have repair done but got PC valves & hoses replaced.

I continued to drive vehicle in hopes that repair would fix problem. It did not. I am not getting any VANOS noise or hardly any. The oil continues to leak from air intake. The vehicle performs flawlessly with substantial power and there are no engine service lights coming on but with oil leaks continuing and armed with information from this site, I returned the Beast to BMW dealership.

I talked with service adviser yesterday. Their continued assessment is to replace both VANOS units. However, now I am being told that 4 cylinders are showing loss of compression and indicating ring replacements. I am schedule to discuss with mechanic and service adviser again today. We are talking about $8,000 to $10,000 if all this is necessary.

David S or anyone else have an opinion on the ring issue??? I think I have seen all the VANOS advice. How can the vehicle be running so great and they come up with this issue. Puzzled and Ticked Off!!

Steve Drinkard ouich


Sikand
Scary
<HR style="COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->From what I have been reading, compared to S38 cars, the V8's are ticking time bombs. Carbon buildup issue, major oil leaks and Vanos failures. I can't tell if this is 00 MY specific or if things got better for 2003. Either way, I am scared since 8-10K appears to be the average cost for each of these problems.

M5 meeyatch

Threads like this scare me. My wife and I are looking to possibly start a family in the next two years, and I had thought that the E39 M5 would be the perfect family car, but now I am not so sure. I drive my cars quite a bit on 1,500 mile + rount trip drives between Indianapolis, Indiana and Barrie, Ontario and want to have a bulletproof reliable car. How many M5 owners are having these serious issues? Please pardon my newness, as I am just trying to learn more in order to make a correct buying decision.


Phillip

Sadly I have to say that although I've not experienced any of these problems on my 11/1999 build, I'm at 16K miles and beleive you in what's ahead for me and most others. I've concluded that leasing is the only direction left for me and BMW. Give it back when it's off warrentee and let it be the problem of someone else.

ilandbear

I agree with DavidS's second paragraph. I have had this problem and it is a known problem that is listed in the BMW service records. In my case it was a leaking Vanos seal. It cost $2,400 to fix because they change the entire vanos. No use just changing the seal since it is damaged, the metal parts in the vanos have been damaged and will destroy a new seal in a few miles.
Fortunately for me, BMW decided to pay for the Vanos so I got away with 15% of the cost (labor). It is usually the right hand side (looking at the engine from the front) that leaks according to BMW. Don't ask me why. My car is a 2001. It had 50.000 Km (31.000 miles) on the clock at the time.


Pete

This is interesting. Last September I had right Vanos unit replaced with new one. After it was installed, both Vanos gears were rattling, no rattle when car was taken in by the way.

My tech called BMWNA and was told to install repair kit of 4 toothed shafts and updated springs for gears. After this I now again have no Vanos niose coming from the car at any time. This procedure was done to both Vanos units at that time.

Is this the repair kit you refer to?

It already had the "rattle at startup" issue addressed previously.

I cannot quote a cost because this and other work was done by BMW under some sort of goodwill gesture thing. The car had only 25K miles on it and was just 1.5 months out of warranty.
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2000 M5..."The Precious"...yup, the wife named it......Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for dinner. LIBERTY is an armed lamb contesting the vote.


M5 in Md

Also want to 2nd the thanks for a great post. I've had a mixed history with the Vanos units (both replaced since I've had the car) and while I don't know if the accumulator has been installed, there is almost no rattle at startup. The only rattle I have is from the UUC aftermarket clutch at 1500 rpm! :M5launch:


Turbo Carrerra AKA Steve

My production date 6/00 sounded like a quiet diesel from new until one of the cam sensors failed in '03. The dealer did some unspecified VANOS work while the car was in for the cam sensor ($2200, but under warranty, no charge to me). Since then the car has been very quiet, no diesel sounds at all.

All in all I think the VANOS system adds a lot of complication to the engine for relatively little HP gain. I also drive a 99 911 and rarely hear of any failures with the Porsche Vario system.




There is so many more posts and issues relatiing to this faulty Vanos system I could go on for pages.
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#3 ·
more members



showmeM5

JUST HAD THE DRIVERS SIDE VANOS REPLACED BECAUSE THE SES LIGHT WAS COMING ON. I DID NOT NOTICE ANY POWER LOSS, OR DID I NOTICE ANY GAINS AFTER THE $4,300.00 SERVICE. WHAT DRIVES ME CRAZY NOW IS THAT THE SES LIGHT IS ON AGAIN.....A WEEK LATER.
WHAT I DO NOTICE IS THAT AT SOME TIMES THE ENGINE ROARS LIKE IT HAS AN AFTERMARKET EXHAUST ON IT AND IT SOUNDS RATHER HEALTHY....BUT AFTER A WHILE OF DRIVING THE SOUND GOES BACK TO SUBDUED. I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IS GOING ON. I NOTICED SOMEONE SAY THAT AUTOZONE CAN PULL THE CODES TO TELL ME WHAT MAY BE WRONG. IS THIS CORRECT?


Evil Vanos (appropriate member name)


This happened to me BUT BMW said that my VANOS units were the problem after REPLACING the units, 2 coils, cam pos sensor and crank pos sensor, the fault was still there, the MAFs were then replaced and the car was fixed,Replace the MAFs first BUY them off the FORUM and save $$$$$ then try the Cam sensor Your local BMW garage WONT do that first they will just replace the most expensive part first good luck mate
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<!-- / message -->Imolaman

Hi Rich,

Had both symptoms, at different times with my beast. To solve the problem with limp mode, change your MAF's, as said by Frits. My dealership would not listen to me, ended up changing both CAT's (at a cost of approx. $10 000 for the pair, amounted to almost ZAR 50 000 here in South Africa) problem remained until I told them to stop wasting their money and my time (they changed all the O2 sensors as well) and just change the MAF's. Insofar as the coarse exhaust note goes, I had mine fixed by changing the camshaft positioning sensor, a cheap part but took mechanic at dealership quite a few hours to replace.

Be careful of additives. Our cars are filled with Castrol TWS Motorsport Oil (quite special and **** expensive) and I'm told it does not mix well with additives.

Keep an eye on your knock sensor if you suspect poor fuel quality.

Hope this helps mate.

Rudi


TrackStar

I am looking at a 2000 M5 that I am seriously considering buying, waiting for a friend to inspect it for me tomorrow. The car has ~75k miles on it and the price is right. The owner, who was extremely thorough and attentive to details (brought the car in for every little thing), has extensive service records (I got copies from the SA), all under warranty and nearly all within the last 10k miles, including:

removal of heads for cleaning and recondition (carbon build up)
new clutch
new dash pixels (twice)
both MAFS replaced
replaced all lifters (2 lifters not pressurizing)
replaced blower resistor
replaced PS lines

also, in trying to fix a noise, the dealer:
updated VANOS springs and spline shafts "also 1-4 VANOS unit" (noise still present) >> replaced both bank 1 exhaust manifolds (noise still present) >> replace left side cylinder head, lifters and valves >> "noise now gone"

I don't know how to feel about all this. I'm glad the car is well documented. I can look at this one of two ways:
1) Every known issue with these cars has already been addressed, BUY IT.
2) This car is cursed and has had every problem ever attributed to M5's and will likely continue to have problems, STAY AWAY.


0to60


I dropped off the beast because I was having loss of power issues. At times the car felt as if its running on only 4 cylinders and did not sound right! I get a call back from the dealer and they say the codes that come up are the CAM ANGLE SENSOR BANK TWO and a VANOS fault. The dealer sais that they are just going to replace the sensor first and see if the VANOS still give a fault code. The technician claims that a bad sensor can set off a VANOS fault. Is this true? It sounds to me like they are too lazy to replace the VANOS unit and just want to patch fix the car???? Any thoughts would be great.


Richard from NY


So many things have gone on with my beast the last month, I don't know where to start or how many threads to open.

First, the Inspection II was done 2 months ago. I asked for a few other problems to be fixed as well at the time. By the time they got fixed, more issues popped up. Plus I was wanting to do various upgrades. Here goes the list and their current status.

Auto dimming mirror: Mine was covered under the CPO! It took them 3 times to order the right replacement but it's finally fixed!

Washer jet: I had a weak one. It is fixed.

The A/C fan speed became sporadic. They replaced the final stage resistor. So far, everything was covered with the 1 CPO deductable.

Rear diff oil leak. I've got a minor drip where the right rear axle attaches to the diff. They were checking whether this is covered under CPO.

I needed new pads. While deciding which to get, the pad sensor went off. Several folks recommended the Hawk HPS for the street for better performance and less dust. I got them put on. They squealed like crazy until 2 bedding in sessions. They still squeal a bit. A 3rd bedding in session didn't help. Now that I spent the money, some say "Oh yes, they do squeal sometimes". I'm not sold the HPS are better performing on the street either. It took an extra week to get in replacement pad sensors. BMW charges double the internet price! But they weren't in stock where I tried, and paid the $tealer cost to get rid of the stupid warnings.

I ordered Hawk HT-10 for the track. I'll let you know how good they are after VIR on 12/03-04. I've got the brake ducts and use ATS high temp fluid. I've got high expectations.

I've debated for a year over suspension upgrades. I settled for only doing shocks. The Koni-sports just went on today. I did the 1 turn from full soft front, 3/4 turn rear as discussed in many threads. So far they are great. They fixed a floaty feel from worn shocks and give a nice firmness to the ride & handling without being harsh. I haven't pushed the car hard enough to know how much I really like them
Of course, I took a twisty road home today but had to follow an idiot 5-10 under the limit. The only downside is I'll have to deal with a few rattles that may sound off more often now. The dealership hasn't found a few I've reported in 3 tries.

BTW, my only other suspension mod is a Dinan rear sway bar. It is in the outside setting.

I had a funny looseness to the front over certain bumpy roads. I suspected bushings but think the shocks fixed it. More time behind the wheel will better decide this. I have no brake shudder before or after the new pads.

New track tires. For now I'm sticking with the Kumho VictoRacers. I'm used to their feel and reactions at the limit. I had to replace the fronts only this time. I debated long over adjustable camber plates to solve the tire wear issue but there seems to be downsides to any setup with the stock springs.

Overall I'm pleased with the upgrades but will likely go back to stock pads on the street if the squealing doesn't get better.

Believe it or not, there's one more thing. I got an SES light the other morning. It's gone out but I've noticed a throatier growl to lower RPMs at times. Today it was real noticeable. I like the sound but is that a sign I'm headed for VANOS problems?

I feel I've visited quite a few of the M5 ownership nuances in just a few months. I guess that's better than being bored to death owning a Camry.


ARD


Hey Steve-

First post and a doosey...

Do some reading:

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=54994

This is a VERY common problem on the 00s, and many have had it addressed much earlier in their lives. As you will read a good many owners have had 'goodwill'. Your mileage is problematic. I'd still give it a shot (longtime customer, original owner, loyal, blah, blah, blah)

It strikes me that the $$s you are being quoted seem way high. From my quick read, it sounds labor intensive, but 10k is 100 hours!

Good luck.

(PS Anyone know if a good independent close to Montgo AL?? Might be time to leave the $stealership if they won't go to bat for you...)



Aleve8

had mine replaced under warranty at 20,000 miles, both units.



JAJ

Steve

There are two kinds of VANOS problems that happen most often. One is "they don't work properly" and it's expensive to fix because you have to replace the VANOS units with new ones. They may or may not be noisy.

The second problem (I've had two M5's and I've had both problems, by the way) involves a failure of the O-ring seals between the VANOS units and the cylinder head. Oil leaks up into the air plenum, forms a pool, and then drains down and out through the air filters, like you are reporting.

While it's still not "cheap" to fix the second problem, it's 'way less than replacing the VANOS units (if the engine runs ok then they're probably working fine).

I hope this helps!



Basil


I asked for my VANOS unit back after having a new one installed but I was told that there is some sort of core swap. I assume that they are sent back to BMW if that's true.

You do have to ask yourself why someone would be selling a single VANOS. If it was a good unit then why wouldn't it be left in the engine - unless someone had a bad one replaced and decided to go ahead and replace the other. Still, it's kind of strange since there is no (or hardly any) overlapping labor involved.



M5Lust


I hear this weird and annoying rattling noise from the engine...its like what a deisel engine would sound. The beast has done 115Ks, and the oil consumption is unbeleiveble, i have to add a litre every 500-600 kms:crying2: .​

any suggestions ?​


TCM​

Sounds like it could be the VANOS unit failing on you. Not a cheap replacement unfortunately. Run a search on VANOS noise and see what info you can gather to see if the symptoms match up. Best of luck and please let us know hwo you make out​



SeanW. Smith​


Hi All,

I could really use some advise and words of wisdom from some of the other M5 owners out there. I have a 2000 BMW with 37,000 Miles on it. Its my part time daily driver, Its not my track car (E36 M3), Race Car (Radical), its just a fun car I drive on the street. Its been driven agressivelly but fanatically maintained. All Fluids, Filters, etc are changed more frequently than BMW spec. Not a scratch or ding on it. Stock other than some window tint, cup holders, and a TCM CAI Brake Duct setup and some Carbotech brake pads.

I bought the car CPO from Leith in Raleigh 1 owner the car was flawless minus a few stone chips and mild wear on the drivers seat. 19K Miles with brand new pilots and alignment on the car. Service History up to that point was not too bad....

Something in the rear strut assembly was repaired at 1700 Miles for Rear thunking noise (more on that later).
Tranny was replaced at 6K miles due to leak issues with original unit.
Problem with AC Blower (final stage replaced at 18K Miles)

Nothing else of concern to that point....

Once I bought the car other than the slipping clutch which I discovered about 2 days after I bought the car as I drove it hard everything was pretty good for a while... I have been babying the same clutch for 2 years now waiting for a more robust solution to be available. I was and am planning to do ACT or UUC upgrade this month but am going to have my personal mechanic do the clutch and a detailed inspection on the car because I trust him completely and is more cost effective. All this was in the works and then I started having some serious misfire issues and SES's about a month ago.

Up until then additionally the car had been serviced for the following under Warranty.

Replaced exhaust camshaft position sensor (SES, Limp) 21K Miles
Replaced instrument cluster for LED Segment failures (23K Miles)
Replaced right rearview mirror (Stripping Gears) (32K Miles)
Replaced MAF (SES) (32K Miles)

Car would always run great for some miles and then slowly loose power and smoothness and eventually throw a CEC for the many reasons listed above.

A month ago I was driving down at the beach giving it full throttle about 5500 in 2nd and it misfired and lit up the SES. Car was in limp mode. Reset the car and LIMP mode was gone. Drove it conservatively home the next day (Sat). Made appt to bring in for service monday. Drove car maybe 20 miles the next two days... I leave my house monday morning to take the car to dealer and glanced over in my parking spot and there was a 1/2 a quart of oil under the car. Check the M5 and it was 1/2 a quart down. Holy SH&*^, talk about having a heart attack! Got it towed to the dealer...

Dealer replaces VANOS unit under CPO (would have cost $2500+)

Diagnoses Failing SAT Nav (Quote $2700 to replace control unit?, no way, don't use it).

Ask them again to investigate this clunking noise from the rear of the car. this is about the 3rd time I have asked them to investigate this. Its been doing it since about 25K miles. Dealer reports that one of the four tranny mounting bolts is missing or broken. NOT COVERED UNDER CPO. What? $350 to repair. Decided not to do that as we are going to pull the tranny and do the clutch as soon as the engine issues are resolved. Problem is that was another noise not the noise I reported. more later..

I come to pick up the car and test drove it. Threw SES within 2 minutes after warm up completed. Similar condition full throttle 5K+ RPM. LIMP mode. return to dealer within 10 minutes.

Dealer diagnoses and replaced Coil Pack, Wire, and Plug on one cynlinder.

Drive with Service Manager and let him hear the rear clunking noise. Throws SES with 5 minutes and service manager hears noise. My quote to him, sounds like a rear shock tower bushing.

Dealer talks to BMW. Recommendation replace all coil packs, plugs, wires...

Replaced all Coil Packs, Plugs and Wires....


Dealer diagnoses thunking noise as "rear strut bearing". Sounds like what I said? $850 to repair. Not covered under CPO. Suspension is not covered!
Now I am starting to get irritated and frustrated. I love my M5, why is she doing this to me... :crying2:

Tell him to not repair rear suspension noise. Again defer to my expert independent mechanic.

Pick up car. Took about 1 hour of driving to cause another SES....

Returned to Dealer again. BMW Recommends Crank Shaft Sensor. Sensor is replaced. dealer gets SES during test drive (I had been letting them test drive it all along but it never thew a code for them till now... )

Now BMW is recommending pulling the tranny and the think there is an issue with the flywheel (possibly missing a tooth). Surprise, Surprise this is not covered under CPO and even WORSE They want to charge me $$$ to do the diagnosis.

I talked with service advisor, shop manager, and the service manager in the last day. Also wrote an email to BMW NA asking for help and even talked to rep on the phone. His position good will has to come from the dealers. The dealer him and hawed too and said its outside protocol and he needed to talk to BMW. We'll see what they have to say tommorow...

So my car is stuck at the dealer. There are 4K in repairs not covered by CPO. The car has probably $15K worth of repairs since new and its still broken. I acceppted the clutch sucked along time ago and choose to be patient waiting for a good solution to become available. I understand BMW not wanting to warranty wear and tear items on the car and even the NAV (NAV: The only reason I care about this at all is resale $). But a bolt holding the tranny in place, a rear strut tower something and now they want to charge me to pull the tranny and potentitally replace a flywheel on a street car that has only 37K miles on it. I'm really not sure what to think at this moment. I could really use some advise from folks out there on dealing with BMW and my dealer and getting my beloved car back to me.

Longer term problem is my CPO will run out in April 06 and the car will have maybe 42K miles on it by that point. I know that the VANOS, MAF, and CPS are common failures but at this pace this car could become very expensive to own over the next few years... All I can say is I love this car but my relationship with it and BMW in general are stressed at the moment.

I have loved and had great luck with my 2 E36 M3's and my My M Roadster. My 2002 M3 Convertible had some many issues (not a lemon by the law but pretty sour) that could not be addressed after 7 trips to the dealer for the set of iissues, that I finally sold the car. I was mad at BMW for not getting that car sorted out. I was considering some other marques and drove the M5 and fell in love immediately. Sucker!

All Comments, Suggestions and Flames are welcome. Sorry for the long post but I had to get this off my chest...

Sean Smith






MUST I GO ON. How many M5 E39 owners could there be on this board. This is overwhelming info. There can't be more then 300-400 on here.
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#5 ·
exactly my point! Ferrari's are barely good past 50,000 miles. I didn't buy a Ferrari, I bought a BMW M5. $10,000.00 for one repair is not considered upkeep. The Vanos issus are present on 10k and 100k miles. I think I will drive a Honda Civic then, lol. If a car worth what I payed for my rims outlasts German Engineering then shame on BMW.:confused2





T-Man said:
some ppl sound not buy performance car at all, if u think it's gong to last as long as a honda civic think agian!!!! 70K on a 400hp high performance car w.some cost to upkeep it is nothing!!!! trhing to own a ferrari!!!
 
#6 · (Edited)
Dude, take a breath... You're cutting and pasting unrelated info and lumping this into a 'sky is falling' scenario because YOUR car had a problem!

I never had a vanos failure... richard simply says "do I have a vanos problem?"...

If you want to raise a question, fine- but posts like this will be ignored.

Sorry

A
 
#7 ·
I am jussed a little pissed at the back BMW has turned to this issue. The VANOS is an ongoing issue with the M5's. Your lucky, but it could happen to you. All this info is related to the Vanos. If you read the whole POST on RICHARD you will see the Vanos Issue. Ignorance is bliss for you then my friend. I would sure like to know if this is going to happen to my M5.

Regards


ard said:
Dude, take a breath... You're cutting and pasting unrelated info and lumping this into a 'sky is falling' scenario because YOUR car had a problem!

I never had a vanos failure... richard simply says "do I have a vanos problem?"...

If you want to raise a question, fine- but posts like this will be ignored.

Sorry

A
 
#8 ·
As you own a particular and actively visit the forum you will find more problem... obviously...

Try the porsche with its notorious rear main seal leak..$$$, and W210 E55 with their transmission, also on Mercedes the A/C condensor know to leak and the blower motor to squeak.... etc..etc..... C32 with S/C heat soaked (faulty S/C water pump unit), W211 E55Kompressor problem with S/C magnetic clutch result in limp mode... etc..etc..

each car, whatever brand has their own problems... I could go on and on about mercedes and some of porsche problems (as I previously I own Mercedes....and at the time I was looking for another AMG, S4 V-8, M5, and 996... so I have read some of their problem....as well.....)

And about Ferrari, well...maybe most of the owner has much deeper pocket and never complaint...and at worst what they can do is just dump the car and get a new one :)

I know troubleshooting a problem that is not very obvious can be very unpleasant and upsetting especially when you no longer have any warranty.....


just my $0.02


Regardz,

J Irwan
 
#9 ·
The rear main seal leak is easy to diagnose problem that happens on a lot 911's including mine. Thats funny you should mention this. It wasn't nearly as costly as fixing the Vanos, and it is on a much more prominant car. Then onto the W210 transmission failure. Once again the cost is around $3400.00 to fix this issue. I am a member of the Mercedes Forum as well. And in regards to the SC/Heat Soak issue, not really that common, and cost to fix around $2000.00. All of these are bad issues indeed with these high end cars, but they don't come close to the severity and cost of replacing Vanos Units.



J Irwan said:
As you own a particular and actively visit the forum you will find more problem... obviously...

Try the porsche with its notorious rear main seal leak..$$$, and W210 E55 with their transmission, also on Mercedes the A/C condensor know to leak and the blower motor to squeak.... etc..etc..... C32 with S/C heat soaked (faulty S/C water pump unit), W211 E55Kompressor problem with S/C magnetic clutch result in limp mode... etc..etc..

each car, whatever brand has their own problems... I could go on and on about mercedes and some of porsche problems (as I previously I own Mercedes....and at the time I was looking for another AMG, S4 V-8, M5, and 996... so I have read some of their problem....as well.....)

And about Ferrari, well...maybe most of the owner has much deeper pocket and never complaint...and at worst what they can do is just dump the car and get a new one :)

I know troubleshooting a problem that is not very obvious can be very unpleasant and upsetting especially when you no longer have any warranty.....


just my $0.02


Regardz,

J Irwan
 
#10 ·
This is exactly the reason BMW has always denied a fault with VANOS,a member(mokushiroku) makes a VALIED point about a PROBLEM that HAS been more than WELL documented on this site by other SENIOR members and the first TWO replies he receives are ones going against what hes posted and another slagging Porches offouich We should stick together I've not had a problem with my clutch but can see that there is an Issue with it,back bite ting and giving out posts saying "oh there's nothing wrong with mine so there isnt a problem" is not the right attitude to have did you know a BRAND NEW s62 engine from BMW is "only" £12,000 $22,000 so why dose the vanos cost half of a full engine there is a problem with VANOS that could be related to the MAF's should we say nothing do nothing? I love my car but its now SIX years old and Im not paying any less for the running of the car if anything its costing more and more,David S anyone please lets get something done about this weather it be we give our Vin Numbers to a member who then writes a letter to BMW telling them the problems we have endured with Vanos,MAF's ,CPS the lads on the E60 are doing something about there lack of the LC system on their cars I haven't even got an E60 and I dont live in the US but Im STILL willing to back or help out in any way this should have been done by the ORIGANL owners of the E39 M5 but it wasnt and now we have the responsibility of dealing with this we need to do somthing,we have this web site thanks to like minded M5 owners new and old who have at one time or another suffered the ridiculous prices BMW charge for everything(£211 each for a CONSUMABLE part MAF's)lets use it to its full extent and get something done please
 
#11 ·
I wouldnt let the vanos issue put you off!

The S62 is still one of the most advanced engines out there,merc engines are basic in comparison.There is bound to be 1 or 2 issues.

And if you think a failed vanos unit is bad what about early 996's with cracked cyilinder liners,now that is a serious flaw.
 
#12 ·
I can't tell you how much money I've spent on this car because I DON'T want to know.

For those who've followed my threads, you could probably guess (just don't tell me)

Don't get me wrong, I do LOVE the car but, at 100,000 miles, I have spent a TON of money on repairs to a car that before I purchased it, had obviously NO idea this would have happened.

And, I haven't even had a Vanos issue yet!?!?

BMWNA to their credit HAS stepped up to the plate and has helped me out (probably felt sorry for me) but the car very obviously has serious flaws that BMW won't own up to and here we are draining our wallets.
 
#14 ·
Gustav said:
hmmm :confused2
I agree we should stick together.

I agree that $10k to fix the VANOS on a $22k engine is excessive.

I agree that MAFs seem to be consumables and they are too expensive.

I agree that Cam position sensors seem to fail too soon.

I BELEIVE that "vanos problems" are often cps failures, and accurate diagnosis of failures is often lacking- and $$$s for this inaccuracy often fall onto owners.

I beleive that "vanos failure" is a rather broad term, and the costs are widely variable.



So, let's say we collect all posts from the past two years and re-post them in this tread- what will that accomplish?


Any one want to do what Wilsodh has done with the carbon issue? Just pissing and moaning about it is NOT going to do a thing.

I've got a 100k mile warranty. THree years from now I will either figure out how to fix my own vanos, sell it, or pay the man... or... if someone gets on BMW successfully and gets them to acknowledge a flaw, they will fix it. This last option has the lowest probability in my book.

FInally, I really do not care to compare faults of other marques...it seems such a pointless and silly waste of energy.

A
 
#15 ·
Here is a private message I recieved earlier today and I though this might be more useful to this forum. He truly makes valid points that back up what I am trying to convey on here. This is not a merely a Vanos issue, but clear interpretation of the wrong doings of BMW and the misfortune of a fatal design flaw of the M5




.Thanks for speaking the truth. I'm a serious car lover. I had read numerous articles about our M5 proclaiming it the "best sports sedan in the world" and believed every word. I mean surely BMW could not have bought every car mag. I bought my first BMW, a 2000 M5 after seeing the outstanding performance by other BMW (325, etc) at the track and on the street. It was the only option with performance, luxury, and a stick!!! Unfortunately I'm not a BMW aficionado that will love even when things go wrong beyond normal trust levels. I do know that the feeling I had with my M5 was beyond anything Lexus or Mercedes could provide both from a performance and pride of ownership level. But the possibility of these high priced repair costs are way more than any normal person could hope to sustain REGARLESS of loyalty. I dumped my M5 with a considerable loss after about two years of ownership (shortly after warranty). The main reason was the high cost of repair. I would have kept it if I !
would have felt the repairs would be permanent and not something that would be reoccurring over the life of the car.

I finally realized something when I compared my attitude to my NSX to my M5. My buddy asked if the NSX blew an engine would I replace it. The approximate cost was about the same as an M5 motor. After serious consideration (about .5 nanosec) I conclude that while I wouldn't like it, I would spend WHATEVER IT TOOK to make my baby whole. The M5 on the other hand. It really comes down the likelihood that this would happen if I did the normal maintenance. On the NSX it would be a rarity to replace two motors much less something like Vanos.

This very much reminds me of how Apple took it's core support for granted (Apple IIe, IIGS, Mac) it's core owners and lost serious market share and $ for years because of arrogance and just plain stupidity. BMW has apparently gone the same route. I mean how hard would it be for them to do the right and make this right (repair cost that is somewhat reasonable)? Even a Viper is cheaper to maintain given Chrysler's abysmal repair records. BMW had their first and last chance. I think I've seen the handwriting on the wall and it's no different from the folks that bought the 850's with the self destructing engines. They basically left them high and dry. Just like the Apple lovers that had to finally come to grip with their abandonment. I could have been an BMW fan for life. The performance was good enough but their attitude was not. The only reason I bought an iPod was the backing from Costco (lifetime warranty). Pretty sad when the vendor is the reason for purchase.

Cal
 
#16 ·
Well, I certainly sympathize with you, and am sorry about your bad experience, but I have to agree with ard on this issue. There is no car in existence, much less high performance cars that tend to get pushed a bit harder than average, that doesn't have some basic problem or other associated with it. When I had my Corvette, it was the dreaded column lock; Porsches are famous for leaking rear mains, and so on, and so on. The bottom line is, if you want a bulletproof high-performance car, well, you're just going to be disappointed. There's always a trade-off between performance and reliability, and if you are dead set on reliability, go buy a Honda or Toyota (and then, whatever you do, DON'T modify it!).

Having said the above, there certainly seem to be a couple of problems that are endemic to our beloved M5s: the carbon buildup and VANOS issues. That being the case, either we can whine about it here on the forum - misery loves company - or try to do something constructive about it.

The value of forums like this is they offer a place to get folks with like cars and like minds together. So if you really want to start a campaign to get BMWNA to do something about it, I'd suggest (a) collecting data on how much of a problem it really is (yes, it really suques when it happens to ME, but is it a pandemic or just my bad luck? Furthermore, no insult intended, but somebody who USED to work for a company and no longer does is going to be a suspected malcontent, whether it's true or not), and (b) develop a petition or some other collective presentation to BMW.

In short, I'm with you, but I don't think your current approach is going to resolve anything. OTOH, if you want to do something positive, then this forum is a good place to start. :cheers:
 
#17 · (Edited)
Thank you for your articulate and intelligent response. You make many valid points. I believe stirring up debate is the first step to bringing the M5 owners together. This is a great forum and I am sad I will not be a part of it anymore.

The point I am making is abundantly clear. There is no correlation between the expense of blowing my 3.6 liter Porsche 911 engine and fixing a reoccurring cancer called the vanos. I have seen the issue get fixed on an M5 with 12,000 miles, only to return at 60,000. There is a design flaw here that needs to be addressed. The only reason there is not been a recall on this is due to the exclusivity of the car and its owners.

You have very good taste in cars I see. We have owned the same kinds of beasts. So you should know that there is no Vanos issue on the Vario Porsche's. The rear main seal is a common thing with a much more prominent car. I believe I have said this already, but the cost to repair it is much, much less then any bottom end replacement or Vanos.

Furthermore, I agree with you 100% on former techs for the most part. I guess you have to judge the persons character to further validate their truth on the matter. Also a highly decorated mechanic does not leave his job after 30 years without a good reason. He is only one of the 4 friends I have that are high ranking Tech's, foreman's for Porsche and BMW. I hate misery and I love company, but not together.

Finally, a petition to BMW is definitely a good idea.

Cheers,
Justin


Did I mention I put my Corvette through a tree and it cost less to fix, lolololol.
 
#69 ·
lets start the petition!!!!

Hey guys foreal letsa start a petition these BMW assholes voided my warranty!!!! i didnt do nothing to my POS M6!!!! everyone with a m5-m6 has a vanos problem how dare they blame me for this!!!

Thank you for your articulate and intelligent response. You make many valid points. I believe stirring up debate is the first step to bringing the M5 owners together. This is a great forum and I am sad I will not be a part of it anymore.

The point I am making is abundantly clear. There is no correlation between the expense of blowing my 3.6 liter Porsche 911 engine and fixing a reoccurring cancer called the vanos. I have seen the issue get fixed on an M5 with 12,000 miles, only to return at 60,000. There is a design flaw here that needs to be addressed. The only reason there is not been a recall on this is due to the exclusivity of the car and its owners.

You have very good taste in cars I see. We have owned the same kinds of beasts. So you should know that there is no Vanos issue on the Vario Porsche's. The rear main seal is a common thing with a much more prominent car. I believe I have said this already, but the cost to repair it is much, much less then any bottom end replacement or Vanos.

Furthermore, I agree with you 100% on former techs for the most part. I guess you have to judge the persons character to further validate their truth on the matter. Also a highly decorated mechanic does not leave his job after 30 years without a good reason. He is only one of the 4 friends I have that are high ranking Tech's, foreman's for Porsche and BMW. I hate misery and I love company, but not together.

Finally, a petition to BMW is definitely a good idea.

Cheers,
Justin


Did I mention I put my Corvette through a tree and it cost less to fix, lolololol.
 
#19 ·
fast4door said:
I think the message here is :confused: , every car does have issues but it seems a bit steep on the repair when you can replace the whole engine for another 10 k. wow !!!
As one who's had the VANOS replaced under warranty I can say I was a little disappointed that it proved to be problematic but it didn't strike me as a big deal at the time. Treating out-of-warranty VANOS repairs as a separate profit center really sucks though. It's a very short-sighted policy that destroys customer loyalty to the marque.
 
#20 ·
ard you make the very point I was trying to make, instead of crying about it we should do something about it,but what?do we start a new sticky thread"Vanos,MAF issues" and get loads of replies but do nothing with it or get some proper advice off someone who is ....stuck in a law firm(members name escapes me) BKH hits the nail on the head when he Say's that BMW replaced the Vanos under warranty but what my point is if they know(which they do)there is a problem with the Vanos why they dont do it for free,weather youv'e got a waranty or not when it is a known problem? I know this would cost ££££$$$$$ but its not our fault its theirs THEY earn Millions world wide every day/week/year (what ever)I dont, even if they just charged half labour and free parts It wouldn't be to bad,but they dont, they charge us for something they manufactured wrong
 
#21 · (Edited)
This is a limited run 400hp sports luxury sedan that's one of the best looking and performing German cars built. You pay a premium for that. I'm not saying I like it or that it's right but that's life.

To get a car to run a buck thirty or more all day (top out at maybe 180 without limiter), handle like a dream with four passengers and be able to sit in traffic on a hot day with the air on and the car idling at 550 rpm's and not overheat or act up is a huge engineering accomplishment in my book.

A couple of thoughts

First, I believe that a lot of Vanos problems are misdiagnosis, when in doubt replace both seems to be the mentality. The dealers profit from repairs and warranty work, BMW loses from repairs and warranty work. Two different business models.

Second, All cars have warranty problems and engineering mistakes, not just BMW.

Third, Because of such a small number of cars built, 18,000 worldwide in the whole run (1999-2003) issues get distorted. If ten percent of the cars have Vanos, Maf, or Clutch problems, that's a big chuck of the fleet. This brings me to my final point.

The E60 is out, seven or eight have come through my local dealer and they're gone before you know it (no doubt a waiting list). Not much incentive for BMW to repair the old when they are well down the path of the new and can't fill the demand. Specialty cars you got to love them.

That's our capitalistic society supply and demand.

Just my thought's
Joe
 
#22 ·
Maybe its me but I can not read through all of the oiginator's long postings, sorry. Just the facts if possible, makes your point(s) much stronger.

I agree that BMW has moved on. I do not hold out hope for any comprehensive corrective actions. Ain't gonna happen. THey got a new bad boy to sell (and repair).

Thankfully there are still some warranties to cover these matters, no matter how many times you go back to the dealer (their competence comes to mind).

Good luck.
 
#23 ·
hudson ,I know its a limited run car but so is the Audi RS6 its aimed at M5 drivers and delivers almost the same performance RS6 was built in even fewer numbers and has an even bigger weak point TURBOS people know about the stresses put on turbos and therefore place a lifetime on them 80,000miles on the Volvo T5,Ive been on the RS6 equivalent of our board and no one has mentioned Turbos or any big mechanical fault and the faults they have found have been rectified ON MASS not an admission of recall,but means even if you HAVENT had a problem they change the part ,but with Vanos BMW UK DENIED they had ANY problems with it(I wasnt a member of the board then),now we have seen instances of Vanos "failing" at as little as 10,000miles thats not even its first service and at £50-60,000 for "The ultimate driving machine" thats ..... this car we have IS fantastic its just let down by the BMW dealers not wanting to take responsibility for cars THEY sell I don't care if its all the dealers ripping us off and that it costs BMW on any problems the dealers WORK for and REPRESENT BMW,and as you say its a limited run car so there isn't many to put right then is there,if Vanos isnt a problem why not fit it on all BMWs in the range?
 
#24 · (Edited)
Evil

Bmw has and does use the Vanos on all it's M3's and lots of other six cylinder engines. They been using it for years on six cylinder M5's. Audi also uses it on their V-6 2.8L and 2.7L engines. We just fixed one a couple of weeks ago. Not sure if the 4.2 V8 in the RS6 uses it but I bet it does. It's an old reliable technology that diesels have use for years to get lots of extra power from a smaller engine.

As for BMW standing up for mistakes well don't hold your breath. Must be a German thing. Remember Audi and the unintended acceleration? It almost put them out of business because they won't stand up for their mistakes. The dealer doesn't care if you have to spend a bunch to replace or repair BMW's mistakes. :)

Joe
 
#25 · (Edited)
Yeah.... what are you talking about?? The Vanos on the E39 and E60 M5 are in a class of their own inspired by F1 cars. Thats like saying a 1993 540 has a V8 and so does the M5 and the S8 and a Lincoln Town Car. The E39 Vanos is V8 DOHC 32V Solid Lifter Valvetrain with Dual VANOS and Individual Throttle Bodies, completely different then what Audi uses or Porsche Vario system. The Vanos in the M5 produces 100 millibars of pressure. In case you don't know thats a ton of pressure. Most cars would die an oily death with an M5 vanos unit.
 
#26 ·
mokushiroku said:
Yeah.... what are you talking about?? .... The E39 Vanos is V8 DOHC 32V Solid Lifter Valvetrain with Dual VANOS and Individual Throttle Bodies, completely different then what Audi uses or Porsche Vario system. .
The S62 has hydraulic lifters, not soild lifters.... uhh, waiting for that last post, or at least one that contributes something at this point.
Mike
 
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