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Old 22nd November 2005, 03:31   #261
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Re: FAQ on Carbon Build-Up Issue (First Attempt)

I've got to say, if I was BMW I'd say- let's just wait until the government comes at us and forces us- any acknowledgement of the problem will increase the odds of a government action.

But I'd still pony up $100 into the kitty to retain someone, and mine doesn't have the problem.

I thought the reason it was US only is that only the US emissions checks secondardy air flow and, if it fails, sets an emissions light. It might be happened OUS but just not setting to code? I prolly have this wrong...

A
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Old 22nd November 2005, 04:01   #262
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Re: FAQ on Carbon Build-Up Issue (First Attempt)

Here's some legal authority:

The Clean Air Act includes a specific warranty provision, requiring that vehicle manufacturers shall warrant to each vehicle purchaser "that such vehicle or engine is ... free from defects in materials and workmanship which cause such vehicle or engine to fail to conform with applicable regulations for its useful life." 42 U.S.C. § 7541 (a). This warranty provision states that "[i]f the purchaser of a motor vehicle maintains and operates it in accordance with the written instructions of the manufacturer and it fails to conform to emission standards during the warranty period... the manufacturer must remedy the nonconformity at its own expense." Chrysler Corp. v. United States Envtl. Prot. Agency, 631 F.2d 865, 868 (D.C. Cir. 1980) (citing 42 U.S.C. §§ 7541(c)(3), (b)). Case law indicates that under Section 7541, the appropriate remedy for failure to comply with this warranty provision is a vehicle recall, as monetary relief would not adequately redress the failure to comply with emissions standards. Center for Auto Safety v. Ruckelhaus, 747 F.2d 1, 6 (D.C. Cir. 1984).
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Old 22nd November 2005, 04:12   #263
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Re: FAQ on Carbon Build-Up Issue (First Attempt)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ard
I've got to say, if I was BMW I'd say- let's just wait until the government comes at us and forces us- any acknowledgement of the problem will increase the odds of a government action.

But I'd still pony up $100 into the kitty to retain someone, and mine doesn't have the problem.

I thought the reason it was US only is that only the US emissions checks secondardy air flow and, if it fails, sets an emissions light. It might be happened OUS but just not setting to code? I prolly have this wrong...

A
Yeah, but I'm thinking when a company is presented with a complaint, evidence, and a cohort of potential plaintiffs, they might just as well conclude the best way to deal with it might be to keep it out of the courts. Agreeing to cover a problem that does not affect the large majority of vehicles might not be a stretch, and it would nullify any Fed risk. As compared with costly recall campaigns, this issue might not be such a big apple.

My worry remains what happens as we all approach 100k mile and beyond. We really need a cost-effective way of addressing this.

You're right about the non-US cars, though I believe this is really just our speculation here on the board. I don't think we know for a fact why non-US cars don't have a problem. My introduction of this in the above responses was a clumsy attempt to try and get at a possible solution for high-mileage folks. We probably don't have much of a leg to stand on, but I'm fantasizing about disabling the air flow monitoring on high mileage cars in which the secondary emissions system has already demonstratably failed. To do this, we might benefit from some knowledge of what to disable/re-program, ala non-US cars.

It would be interesting to have a legal opinion on when does the car-owners responsibility for upkeep of the manufacturers emissions systems reasonably end? One would think that the responsibility would be defined by state-level requirements. If your car fails an emissions test, you are responsible to get the car in condition to pass the test. In Illinois, we don't have a cold-start emission requirement. So is it reasonable that I should pay $8,000 to repair a cold-start emission system in Illinois on an aging car (ie, beyond the FCAA period of 80,000 miles)?

If we are NOT responsible for upkeep of an emissions system that does not apply to our state requirements, it seems to me that it should not be illegal to disable an air sensor on an already broken system. The bottom line is that the car still passes the required emissions tests. Thus, if we can demonstrate that the system has already failed, and that the system does not apply to our state's emissions requirements, BMW should be able to disable the sensor.

Cheers,
Dave
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Old 22nd November 2005, 05:28   #264
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Re: FAQ on Carbon Build-Up Issue (First Attempt)

Quote:
Originally Posted by greg

He said they are switching all their customers to Mobil 15W-50. He said the Castrol foams, which contributes to the oil consumption, which contributes to the Carbon buildup. He thinks switching to Mobil we will see an immediate reduction in oil consumption. I'll probably try this very soon. Anyone gone before me? Comments?
Greg, I suppose this is true. Mottati (Mike) described how his oil consumption was reduced when he switched from Castrol 5-30 to Mobil1 10-50; however, his oil temp went up so he is going to switch back. I'm still not sure how this factors in - if it's just a matter of oil consumption it may work. My car does not consume much 5-30 (1 qt. every 6k miles or so) so I don't know that I will change until I actually understand the what causes the problem.

Dave and Adam, it seems as though the mileage is the issue, if it is not something such as how much oil the car consumes. If this is the case, it does not seem that getting BMW to warranty the secondary air system to 80K miles is worth the effort, as most owners will be beyond that when the problem occurs. And I would normally not have the car by then, but I want to keep the M5!!

I asked my SA today about preventive measures and he is going to talk to the SM and BMW NA about preventive measures, if any. I'll let everyone know if any useful information is given.
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Old 22nd November 2005, 05:44   #265
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Re: FAQ on Carbon Build-Up Issue (First Attempt)

[quote=Greg]He said they are switching all their customers to Mobil 15W-50. He said the Castrol foams, which contributes to the oil consumption, which contributes to the Carbon buildup. He thinks switching to Mobil we will see an immediate reduction in oil consumption./QUOTE]

Interestingly, my oil consumption significantly decreased when I changed from Castrol 5W-30 to 10W-60. I've never tried Mobil 15W-50. I presume it has comparable SAE ratings vis-a-vis the Castrol products. Does anyone kn
ow?
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Old 22nd November 2005, 05:59   #266
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Re: FAQ on Carbon Build-Up Issue (First Attempt)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinM
Dave and Adam, it seems as though the mileage is the issue, if it is not something such as how much oil the car consumes. If this is the case, it does not seem that getting BMW to warranty the secondary air system to 80K miles is worth the effort, as most owners will be beyond that when the problem occurs. And I would normally not have the car by then, but I want to keep the M5!!
Agreed the majority will probably see the problem as mileage piles on, which is why BMW should not have too much heartburn over this. In Dave's Fantasy World, I'm thinking it would be a sound case and it will get their attention and should/could be a layup... but... the REAL motive is to seek relief for the >80,000 mile crowd. Here's what I'm thinking.

What is being sought is this:
i) BMW will provide warranty coverage for upkeep of the secondary air emissions system to the Federal minimum 80,000 miles.

ii) BMW will disable or re-calibrate (per ex-US cars) the secondary air monitoring sensor provided the following conditions are met:
a) Vehicle has an excess of 80,000 miles
b) Vehicle's secondary air system is verified as disfunctional
c) Vehicle is registered in a state that does not have a cold- start emission requirement.

Provided we can confirm the legality of ii) above, this should be a BIG FAT WIN-WIN!! We win, and BMW wins because they no longer have to shoulder 'good-will' repairs for an emission system that is no longer required by law!! CARBON BUILD-UP PROBLEMS SOLVED!!! NEEE HAAAWW!! :p :p

Cheers,
Dave

Last edited by wilsodh; 22nd November 2005 at 06:08.
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Old 22nd November 2005, 06:21   #267
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Re: FAQ on Carbon Build-Up Issue (First Attempt)

Quote:
Originally Posted by greg
He said they are switching all their customers to Mobil 15W-50. He said the Castrol foams, which contributes to the oil consumption, which contributes to the Carbon buildup. .
Any independent comments/verification on this? Like BITOG? (BobIsTheOilGuy.com)....an oil scientist I've been consulting with never mentioned "foaming issues" with EITHER BMW 5W30 or TWS10W60 (both castrol). (I just hate "everybody is doing it" rationales...)

On the legal front, I fear that time will be our enemy... it will happen too late and too slowly for there to be a huge interest (read people willing to spend $ to fight) and too late for the feds to get wild about it....

Here in CA, my understanding is that you are only required to spend $450 towards repair to meet emissions- if that doesn't fix it, you can 'pass'. Unfortunately, if they say "$8000 to clean the heads", you can't spend $450 on part of it- However, if they say "bad mafs" or "bad cats" and you fix that for >450 and it still fails you get a pass. Still you look at the GD ses light...

Last edited by ard; 22nd November 2005 at 06:49.
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Old 22nd November 2005, 07:33   #268
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Re: FAQ on Carbon Build-Up Issue (First Attempt)

This is a little mixed up.

My car used minimal oil with bmw longlife 5/30, maybe a quart every 3k miles. I switched to TWS (10/60) for a couple of years (car is 6/00 production, so it can use 'anything') and oil consumption went to 'nil', a liter every 5-6k miles depending on track time. Learned that my theory of only the US cars use thinner oil was wrong, and went to another approved 'bmw LL01' oil, namely mobil 1 0W40 ( i think it's the only LL01 mobil 1) and my oil consumption went up a bit, about a quart every 2k miles. I don't think what i would call normal oil consumption causes any of this. Again, my oil consumption was greatest with mobil 1, albeit 0w40, not 15w50 (then again, i don't know if 15w50 is ll01 approved).

Interestingly, i emailed bmwna thru owners circle asking for a list of 'approved' oils for my 6/00 M5. TWS was NOT on this list, all were 5w30 synthetics, including mobil 1 5/30. I replied, stating that mobil 1 5/30 is not bmw ll01 approved, only 0w40 was, and got the same response and 'check with your dealer for the latest info.'

and yes, my temps were higher with TWS, not dangerously or anything, but street and trac temps are about 15 - 20 degrees F lower with the thinner oil.

I just picked up some "german castrol" that is spoken so highly about on the bob's the oil guy site, i believe this is the castrol slx that is the recommended oil for our european counterparts on post 3/00 M5's. Its a castrol syntec that has a 'made in germany' label on the back (the rest are made in usa) and is 0w30.
Mike



Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinM
Greg, I suppose this is true. Mottati (Mike) described how his oil consumption was reduced when he switched from Castrol 5-30 to Mobil1 10-50; however, his oil temp went up so he is going to switch back. I'm still not sure how this factors in - if it's just a matter of oil consumption it may work. My car does not consume much 5-30 (1 qt. every 6k miles or so) so I don't know that I will change until I actually understand the what causes the problem.
.
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Old 22nd November 2005, 07:36   #269
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Re: FAQ on Carbon Build-Up Issue (First Attempt)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ard
Still you look at the GD ses light...
which brings us back to the software issue. I haven't heard from powerchip (i emailed wayne) but it sounds like the european cars do not 'look' for the secondary airflow, hence no fault code. Powerchip wouldn't write a program to avoid this, as that would be tampering with emissions, and Euro software won't work in a US car.

spending 8k on the car to make it better is one thing, but 8k to improve 30 seconds worth of cold start emissions is another....
mike
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Old 22nd November 2005, 18:52   #270
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Re: FAQ on Carbon Build-Up Issue (First Attempt)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ard
On the legal front, I fear that time will be our enemy... it will happen too late and too slowly for there to be a huge interest (read people willing to spend $ to fight) and too late for the feds to get wild about it....
On the other hand, this problem is only going to get worse as our cars rack up miles... time might actually be on our side from that standpoint... Also, I could be wrong, but I'm not sure how interested the feds would be in this. I see this as a consumer-driven issue related to the non-compliance to FCAA to add legal footing. Like any organization with limited resources, even federal agencies must choose the "biggest bang for the buck" issues to pursue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ard
Here in CA, my understanding is that you are only required to spend $450 towards repair to meet emissions- if that doesn't fix it, you can 'pass'. Unfortunately, if they say "$8000 to clean the heads", you can't spend $450 on part of it- However, if they say "bad mafs" or "bad cats" and you fix that for >450 and it still fails you get a pass. Still you look at the GD ses light...
But since "clean the heads" is specifically to address the emissions system, I guess the root question is whether it is possible for BMW to re-program (deactivate) the monitoring of a dead system rather than hoist $8,000 repair bills upon its valued customers. The latter wouldn't seem to serve anyone's interests.

Cheers,
Dave
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