I've been eyeing a local car and want to make an offer but am having a tough time getting a handle of the market value. I figured it was time to ask the experts.
Seller is asking $25K.
I know condition is king, but for all intents and purposes lets assume a well maintained Titanium 2001 e39 M5 @ 70,000mi with a stack of receipts and an expected level of patina for the vintage. It's been dealer maintained, but little in the way of preventative maintenance, so I would expect to take care of a few things - PPI is forthcoming but will not be used to bargain.
I personally wouldn't spend much over 20k for it. Unless that preventative maintenance has been done. It is an old car so if it sat around who knows what may have dry rotted or whatnot. Be cautious and get a good PPI. Good luck
I've been eyeing a local car and want to make an offer but am having a tough time getting a handle of the market value. I figured it was time to ask the experts.
Seller is asking $25K.
I know condition is king, but for all intents and purposes lets assume a well maintained Titanium 2001 e39 M5 @ 70,000mi with a stack of receipts and an expected level of patina for the vintage. It's been dealer maintained, but little in the way of preventative maintenance, so I would expect to take care of a few things - PPI is forthcoming but will not be used to bargain.
Depending on the condition, that price is close to market. Perhaps plan on $25K with all the needed preventive maintenance and any needed repairs done.
The real purchase price is the acquisition cost plus the repairs and maintenance (usually some deferred as people don't maintain a car when they are getting ready to sell) over the next 3-6 months. So if a car is at the "high end" but has lots of maintenance done, it may be cheaper in the long run.
Also consider color and options. If it has everything you want (and many people are particular), then it is worth a little more to you.
EAG gets top dollar for their cars, but they go through and do all the maintenance. Recognzing these are just asking prices, but with most of the maintenance done, here are few examples for comparison:
Might be a little high. You're in California, right? Hopefully the car has been a CA car the whole time. As a point of reference I paid $24k two years ago in Seattle for a very similar car with Dinan exhaust and a stealth install Passport detector.
Tires were OK - pilot sports that have a few years on them.
The car has been all over the west coast, so not CA only unfortunately.
To summarize, it seems like the price may be a tad high pending a good PPI. I guess next step is to get the PPI - do you all recommend a compression test too?
Offer $20K and settle somewhere in between. Seller has a pretty good idea of the value of the car. He isn't going to take $18K for it so offer $20K and stick to somewhere close to that number. Considering it's a 2001 and a less desirable or rare color. Maybe a LBM 2003 with 70K is worth $25K but probably not this Car.
Offer $20K and settle somewhere in between. Seller has a pretty good idea of the value of the car. He isn't going to take $18K for it so offer $20K and stick to somewhere close to that number. Considering it's a 2001 and a less desirable or rare color. Maybe a LBM 2003 with 70K is worth $25K but probably not this Car.
I agree with most of the thoughts above..Get a PPI and find out what is required to bring it up a standard you will be happy with. Starting at 25K with 3 to 5K worth of suspension, brakes and tires for example puts the dollars out of line in my humble opinion..
Have you been shopping for awhile? Is Titanium one of the colors on your wish list? Does it have the interior you've been searching for?
These things matter a lot in the value of it to you. I just paid 28k for a 59k 01 Anthracite. It was more then I wanted to pay, but that's as low as the seller would go. Ultimately it was the exact car I wanted and so I paid up.
Like everyone said, it's on the top end. But if it checks out how you expect, and it's a perfect spec for you, then pull the trigger. You will love it for a long time.
Condition is everything at this age. I have a 2001 with 66k miles that has never been a daily driver and has been garaged 24/7 since it was new. It's only ever spent a few nights outside on a trip, and hardly ever in rain, never in snow -- last time it was caught out on a drive in rain was 2008. However coming back from Redshit's place where we did the clutch a couple of months ago it was misting (more on that in a sec). Treat all these common comments about dry rot, etc, with a grain of salt as a detailed inspection will reveal the truth. Anti-dry rot example: the last time my wiper blades were replaced was during the initial free maintenance period which ended in July 2005. That night when I had to drive it home in the mist, they still swept the windshield perfectly. They are in amazing condition and are 12 years old. I never need them, so I hadn't thought about them until that night (note: Brian did offer to let me take his M5 home but I declined ).
The net is that condition + preventative maintenance + treatment will yield a very wide range of outcomes on a 16 year old car. Very wide. Mid to upper 20s for a prime condition 2001 with 70k with full provenance is not out of line. A daily driven, lived outside a lot, "used" example with the same mileage will not interest those in the market for the former hence pricing in the low 20s probably. As time goes on being able to find a condition 1 or 2 example with 70k of less miles is exponentially going down. A lot of that market has turned over into strong hands in the past few years.
Yes really depends on condition - if the car had lived it's life in a garage that makes a big difference. Dinan stuff is good - I wouldn't pay more for that necessarily but I have the exhaust which is nice. The suspension I would prefer not to have. I like the stock springs better but the shocks are good. Depends what you want from the car I guess.
$30K is a crazy ask for the car imho
$25K is more than I think it's worth but I haven't seen the car and this is a very personal decision. If it was a color I had to have and I liked the dinan stuff and the condition was great I would pay a few $K over what I felt the car was worth. It's only money and these cars are few and far between.
Yes really depends on condition - if the car had lived it's life in a garage that makes a big difference. Dinan stuff is good - I wouldn't pay more for that necessarily but I have the exhaust which is nice. The suspension I would prefer not to have. I like the stock springs better but the shocks are good. Depends what you want from the car I guess.
$30K is a crazy ask for the car imho
$25K is more than I think it's worth but I haven't seen the car and this is a very personal decision. If it was a color I had to have and I liked the dinan stuff and the condition was great I would pay a few $K over what I felt the car was worth. It's only money and these cars are few and far between.
It has all the options I want (including PDC) and the grey/black sport seats (would have preferred black on black sport but oh well).
xrviz said:
It would be worth your time to go through the stack of receipts and see what has been done. Particularly with regards to expensive items/work like suspension refresh, MAFS, VANOS board maintenance which will be needed relatively soon at that mileage.
The stack was a bit overwhelming but I tried my best to sort through it. First owner would take the car to dealer for any squeak and have them diagnose and fix; so I had a 40+ pages of dot matrix prints from the dealer. I did not see MAFS but VANOS was replaced earlier on. Suspension is Dinan, though I don't know how old. Hopefull PPI will shed light on its condition?
It would be worth your time to go through the stack of receipts and see what has been done. Particularly with regards to expensive items/work like suspension refresh, MAFS, VANOS board maintenance which will be needed relatively soon at that mileage.
I agree with the previous two comments. FWIW, I paid $26k for mine in December- 02 with 62k miles in alpine white. It also had about $13k worth of services done including vanos so I felt justified at that price. The prices of these cars is on the rise too.
It's also not uncommon to have to address a few things right off the bat. I had to rebuild my driveshaft, reseal a leak in my diff, fix a twisted seat, and replace a rear sway bar bracket. These cars are old and will always need a bit of maintenance.
What people fail to realize that the price of these beasts are going up.
I paid $11k for an '02 Dinan S2 M5 with 108k miles from the original owner (dentist) in December of 2013.
I also paid about $10k more than that for my current M5 in December 2016 (just 3 years later), and I am very content with the price. Notwithstanding it's color combo (Imola Red Exterior on Imola Red Interior), the car was exceptionally maintained at all times by an S62 master tech at a famous shop in San Diego, and the owner was an older gentlemen who regularly drove the car for 6 years, and a long-time M5board member. So the car is flawless cosmetically and mechanically.
I am the original owner of a 2001 Imola M5 with 187,000 miles showing. Yes, this mileage is on the high side, but the engine was rebuilt by BMW at 60,000 miles (another story). There are sooooooooooooooooooo many items that at this point in time could be an issue just because plastic does not last forever. Mine has been garaged since the beginning, but age and elements still take a toll.
All the under body panels need to be inspected as well as the hardware that goes with them.
Try the windshield washer, they disintegrate over time.
Inspect all of the door and trunk seals.
Inspect the manual trunk opening lever.
Inspect the glove compartment latch.
Look at all of the plastic in the engine area, look closely at the plastic cover on the lower windshield.
Aftermarket exhaust or wheels? I have a Tubi (Ferrari exhaust) a positive. Many others are a negative if they are too loud.
OEM brakes? This would be a positive.
Does the OEM key fob still function?
I have had many interior panels come loose. The air bag cover on the drivers door came loose.
Are the original floor mats with the M5 logo present.
How about the plastic door opening covers on the lower door frames with the M5 emblem? All four doors have them or should.
Is there a short shifter installed? This was a popular aftermarket upgrade.
Rear stabilizer bar brackets replaced? If not, the OEM brackets broke a long time ago.
Does the CD player work on rough roads? Not inexpensive to replace.
Has the mapping software been upgraded?
I could go on and on and on. These are just a small sample of what you might want to be interested in prior to putting down an offer. I have never regretted my purchase. I continue to get offers on my car and the prices are beginning to rise ever so slightly at this point.
Alright - Here are the highlights of the PPI I had done.
Brake wear: Front_7_mm Rear_3_mm
Tire tread: Front_4_mm Rear_3_mm
-tint is peeling on left rear
-dent in the right front corner
-Intensive wash tank pump is inop
-rear brakes are at sensor
-headlight lenses have some haze
-vibration and looseness in steering
-coolant protection at -34º f
-brake fluid is dark
-bank #2 cat has been replaced
-M-Mobility kit missing
-battery passes, but tester states recharge
**Center track rod is failed and has excessive play. Near 1/2 inch play each wheel. Safety Issue
One cat replaced but not the other is a major red flag to me.
Brakes and tires are wear items. Non issue.
I would bet suspension needs some attention not shown here unless bushings and shocks have been done already.
My take is this is not a very comprehensive PPI
PPI was done by a very reputable shop. They either thought there wasn't much else to the car or that they are looking forward to my (potential) business....
Seller is way out of line with the asking price. If I was to sell my car today, I would be asking ~$26-28k, and it would require absolutely nothing for that price, have brand new brakes all around, history since new fluid changes way before "required" intervals, presents as new headlights, presents as almost new all around inside and out. Plus it will have brand new tires, Micheling PSS or PS4S. Anything a PPI would indicate I would take care of for my price.
It sounds like you're looking at a below $20k car that could potentially need many thousands in repair parts costs (assuming all labor is DIY). I would assume it will need MAFs, tstat, all fluids, rotors/pads/sensors all around, probably control arms (at least front uppers and rear uppers), obviously needs center track rod plus add to that both tie rods and an alignment, maybe 4xCPS, headlight sanding/polishing (this tells me this car has spent A LOT of time outside -- I replaced one headlight years ago due to adjuster failure but my other one is original to the car and presents as almost new -- perfectly clear) -- likely this list will continue....
Wait Chuck, I have to respectfully disagree. I'm by no means an expert on the market, but I did follow it for a long time leading up to my purchase. You have an original (enthusiast) owner, MINT, 66k Lemans Blue, with full history. In the market right now, your car is easily 32k+.
Overall I'm still interested in the car. It's the right combo of options and I guess I don't see any huge problems (one replaced cat is odd but is that a huge flag?)
The negotiations will continue and I think $25 less the cost of repairs sounds reasonable - maybe split the cost of tires and the wearable items.
This is not a bad car, just a little high in $$$ given some deferred maintenance. It needs tires and pads (perhaps rotors, no thickness given). I wouldn't worry about the cat, they tend to last a long time, but you can replace the cat with non OE one for $500 or so. Not a deal breaker to me.
Perhaps this link will help in your negotiations.....
Low end daily driver quality car at best with numerous condition issues all over it including bumper cover cracks, stone chips everywhere, sun-rotting trim, nasty condition wheels, etc, etc. It sold for what the market value likely is for a car in such condition, i.e. Hagerty Condition #4 car.
Good decision. Would have been worth considering if they at least split the difference on the deferred maint. IMO they are asking too dollar for a ready to go car. That's the way i bought mine. Needed nothing. Even had new tires.
Not going to lie - it was not easy to do, but i'm trying to be patient.
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