BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums banner

Europe trip, including Nurburgring

10K views 67 replies 24 participants last post by  BrendanSC 
#1 ·
Hey guys. Wasn't sure the best place to post this, but it has potential E39 content and discussion of the Nurburgring!

This September (2016) myself, nsogiba and his wife are traveling to Europe for a few weeks. The bulk of the trip will be spent in Germany, but we are starting off in Poland. The major cities/stops on the list are Berlin, Nurburgring area, Stuttgart, and Munich. (and in that order). We have just started planning and I want to learn as much as I can on good places to go see, eat, and possibly even stay. Hopefully our world traveling and local owners can chime in!
We are interested in history, specifically WW2 history. Automotive related stuff: We are planning on Mercedes, Porsche, and BMW museums. Certainly we are doing our own research and have great travel books, but tips and suggestions from those that have gone or those that live there trumps any book!

For experiences, we want to be able to experience an unlimited section of the autobahn, hopefully in something that goes over 100 mph... lol. So tips and ideas on car rental, or maybe we can meet some German M5 owners?? Related to car rental, we plan to spend a solid day at/around Nurburgring... what do you guys recommend for that experience? Loosely thinking rent a car and do some laps each, and possibly take a ride in the taxi last? I'm budgeting this to be the most expensive day of the trip for me. Possibly once in a lifetime experience so I don't care the cost... well maybe some limit.

We will be splitting up after our time in Munich. They are headed to Italy and I plan to hit one more city on my own... I thought of Prague, Vienna, or Zurich... thoughts on that?
 
See less See more
  • Like
Reactions: REKIII
#2 ·
Sounds like it'll be a good time! I've spent quite a bit of time in Germany for work, so here's some thoughts, in no particular order:

You'll need to rent a dedicated car for the 'ring. Rumor has it that the major rental car companies have "spotters" that are paid to watch for Rentals on the track, as it's forbidden per the rental agreement. That may be folklore, but regardless I wouldn't run the risk of using a street rental car on the track. I used "rent4ring" and had a great experience. The favorable exchange rate at the moment means it's not too terribly expensive. Also, rent something slow. A slow-ish trip around the ring is a hell of a lot of fun and beats the hell out of putting an M3 into the wall. Lol. 156 turns per lap is a lot to digest and several of them can surprise you if you're really hauling ***. Make sure the ring is open for a "tourist" session (touristenfahrten) on the dates you'll be there or else you'll just be watching.

When you reserve your street car, you have the option of playing the dumb American who can't drive a standard and needs A/C. This will almost certainly land you in a BMW or a Benz. If you reserve a manual, be prepared to end up in an econo **** box that may not exceed 100mph. Maybe some other guys know tricks to end up in a decent manuel car.

Unlimited autobahn sections are easy to find. Finding sections that are uncongested enough to go flat out is the trick.

If you make it to Nuremberg (which is quite a ways from Nurburg), there's tons of WW2 history as it was where the Nazi party was headquartered in the beginning. Check out the "dokumentationzentrum" museum for a very interesting, yet sobering account of the Nazi party's rise to power and WW2 in general.

Forget everything you know about German food & Beer in the US. Prepare to be spoiled to great food and even better beer. Be sure to ask locals for recommendations as to each specific area's "signature dish"

Most people in the major cities do speak English, but they appreciate an attempt at German, even if it means you butcher their native tongue. Check out the free app Duolingo for a way to learn some vocabulary before you go over.

Hope some of this helps and good luck!
 
#3 · (Edited)
Good pointers from Rontgen. One thing to add is that Airbnb is awesome for finding places to stay.

Also, watch out for the photo radar. It's everywhere and gets expensive with every €30 per ticket "service charge" that the rental car company charges.
 
#5 ·
As above I noticed with your itinerary of destinations you seem to be honing in around the Bavarian area of Germany although you list the Nurburgring which isn't actually in Nuremberg, although Nuremberg is quite close to the other areas of Germany you mentioned.


I lived and worked in Nuremberg for a short while and its a fantastic city, the DokuCentrum really is a sobering place to visit but its a real credit to the Germans as they don't try to hide what they did or wash over it. A few years back when I was there if you visited the Frankenstadion which is Nurnburg (Nuremberg) FC's ground you actually walked across the zeppelin fields which is where Hitler narrated a lot of his rallies from, I think a lot of its covered over now but might be worth a visit. If you do go there give me a shout and tell me what you want to do whilst there and i'll see if I can recommend anything!


Berlin is wonderful. Make sure you get to checkpoint Charlie as you can still have your passport stamped with all of the allied stamps which is pretty good. The Brandenburg gate is spectacular too although be aware the city is bloody massive and difficult to get around in a day or two!!
 
#6 ·
I will have to keep up with this thread as my wife and I will also be traveling in Germany next September as well.

Some excellent suggestions made above for world war 2 history. If your going to Munich I would suggest Dachau. I never had an opportunity to go but I have heard it is something. Since you're going to be in Poland where a substantial part of the holocaust occurred, there are a lot of options there of things to see as well. I have been to Nuremberg and would suggest it, the parade grounds was pretty powerful for me.

If you get to go to Berlin do it. Personally it's one of my favorite cities. Berlin is a city where you can still see the bullet holes from the war (although almost every German city still has its scars). Take a city tour to see as much as possible. Sites include Sachsenhausen Concentration Camp, the German history museum, Wannsee, potsdamn, and the Reichstag area.

I could keep going about sites in northern Germany like the tank museum in Munster or St Nicholas in Hamburg but this is still a car forum. I would suggest renting from a place at the ring, don't take your rental out. It's fairly well documented that you will be caught and charged heavily. As for the autobahn it's all about traffic.


Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App
 
#7 ·
The one thing that's for certain - no matter how long you stay, you'll wish you'd have stayed longer. :)

If you end up in Nuremberg, make sure you find some schäefela (pronounced Shoy-fell-ah). It's a baked pork shoulder that is common in the Franconian area of Bavaria. And be sure to try a Dunkel Hefeweiss from a local brewery.

Schnitzel is always a safe choice and there's an endless number of varieties to choose from. Be sure to grab a fresh soft pretzel from a bakery at some point.

A bier garten is always a good time, although if you're there during Oktoberfest, the crowds can be unreal. Most of the natives I know don't bother with the big Oktoberfest events unless they have an invite to a specific tent. Otherwise, you're left standing around with the other million people who don't have invites.

Last, but certainly not least for most of us Americans - "regular" drinking water can be a challenge to order. Most times if you order "wasser" you will get sparking mineral water. Use the phrases "water no gas" or "wasser ohne kohlensäure" to ask for non-carbonated water. I actually have a friend who ended up in a German ER with Dehydration because he was drinking alcohol like a sailor, yet couldn't figure out how to order water to rehydrate himself. Haha

This thread has me ready to make another trip! Good Luck!
 
#31 ·
Thanks for the good info. You and many others are mentioning Nuremberg, which I am well aware of the history that took place there... we might need to add this as a stop!

For the food and beer... I can't wait. All 3 of us enjoy good quality food and craft beer... we are from Buffalo! Just ranked 3rd in the world as a food city! Segue to the "beer gardens"... we did want to go to experience one. Our trip dates are arrive in Warsaw on 9/5, and in Germany from approximately 9/7 - 9/15?

We heard the same thing regarding the water... don't want to end up in an ER!
 
#8 ·
I recommend Prague or even Budapest over Vienna. We visited Munich, Prague, Vienna and Budapest last winter. We rented a car in Vienna and the luxury/prestige option only got us a Merc C180 which I was not impressed with. Otherwise we took the train. I have a list of restaurants and things to do buried in my email if you want it.
 
#32 ·
Brendan, thanks for the feedback. Prague is my #1 choice right now, mostly based on things I've heard from other people. If you have restaurants and things to do in Prague, I'd be happy to have it. I shoot you a PM with my email address.

Stay at the Fuchsrohre. Ask for Michaela who owns it. Its a great place with a nice bar/restaurant attached to it and ample parking facilities. She's also very knowledgeable about the area and will even take you places in her minibus and photograph your car on the ring for you.


There's also a PS3 with wheel at the guest house with a seasonal 'ring challenge to overcome which is good fun after a days driving, and a pool table.


Could I recommend you look at the TF calendar and plan your day or 2 visit on a weekday and not a weekend?


The track is open all day at the weekends and only for about 2 hours in the evening on a weekday so it seems like a no brainer to visit at the weekend, but its usually rammed with visitors and track time gets very limited due to accidents, coupled with the fact there is lots of traffic on track at any one time meaning if you are after a good lap or are new to the track and want some space and not have to look in your mirror every 3 seconds its not ideal.


Weekday tracktime is much more open and empty. You can do a good few laps without worry of a closure or lots of traffic and the plus side is you get all day to look around and sight see too as opposed to sitting in a queue of about 100 cars (no exaggeration) waiting for the track to reopen for a 5th time because of an accident
Great info and recommendations. Thank you. We will compile the recommendations on places to stay, etc. and figure it out what will work best. I appreciate the realistic tips about when to go to the 'ring. Yet one more thing to factor into our planning. Hopefully a 2016 calendar comes out soon for the 'ring.

A good option for staying is with Edgar Steffens here: Pension-Muehlenhardt

I always stay there and love the place - it's also good for walking and you can pop up through the woods and come out on the outside of Karussel, which is cool.

For eating at the 'Ring you have to try the Filet am stein (steak on a stone) at Pistenklause and any pizza at all at Julia's (next to Breidscheid Bridge on the edge of Adenau).

I agree with visiting Berlin, and the BMW museum in Munich is pretty good too.

One thing about the Autobahn - derestricted bits are amazing but be aware that the restricted bits have speed limits enforced pretty rigorously. Plus the Germans don't seem to accommodate casual speeding like the rest of Europe...

Feel free to PM if you want specifics, and who knows - I may be over there around that time myself. I've done about 1700 laps so would be happy to show you the way around ;)
Thanks for the tips, etc. Will add these things to the list! I'd like to build a list of contacts of people that are around the areas we may go, either to meet up or for questions, etc. I will PM you.

I can pick you up for a round with my M5 V10 Touring:nerd
That would be incredible! I've never even seen an M5 touring in person, so even if we just meet up for a beer would be cool. A lap on the track with a good driver would be fantastic! I will PM you as well.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ticat928
#9 ·
Thanks all for the detailed responses. All input is welcome!

All my family resides in Poland so we will be spending a day or two with them - but otherwise will be sightseeing in Warsaw, Krakow, and whatever war historical sites we can see in between, along with the famous Wieliczka Salt Mine - I saw it as a young boy and it was a great experience.

Any recommendations on where to stay in close proximity to the 'Ring? Also, Tim (OP) and I will be driving the rental racer - I am wondering if my estimate of 2 laps each will be "enough" for each of us? I agree with the idea that "less is more" when it comes to the Ring car - I would much rather try to push a smaller FWD hot hatch or 125i, than have to hold myself back with a quicker E9x M3 or the like.
 
#10 ·
Stay at the Fuchsrohre. Ask for Michaela who owns it. Its a great place with a nice bar/restaurant attached to it and ample parking facilities. She's also very knowledgeable about the area and will even take you places in her minibus and photograph your car on the ring for you.


There's also a PS3 with wheel at the guest house with a seasonal 'ring challenge to overcome which is good fun after a days driving, and a pool table.


Could I recommend you look at the TF calendar and plan your day or 2 visit on a weekday and not a weekend?


The track is open all day at the weekends and only for about 2 hours in the evening on a weekday so it seems like a no brainer to visit at the weekend, but its usually rammed with visitors and track time gets very limited due to accidents, coupled with the fact there is lots of traffic on track at any one time meaning if you are after a good lap or are new to the track and want some space and not have to look in your mirror every 3 seconds its not ideal.


Weekday tracktime is much more open and empty. You can do a good few laps without worry of a closure or lots of traffic and the plus side is you get all day to look around and sight see too as opposed to sitting in a queue of about 100 cars (no exaggeration) waiting for the track to reopen for a 5th time because of an accident
 
#11 ·
A good option for staying is with Edgar Steffens here: Pension-Muehlenhardt

I always stay there and love the place - it's also good for walking and you can pop up through the woods and come out on the outside of Karussel, which is cool.

For eating at the 'Ring you have to try the Filet am stein (steak on a stone) at Pistenklause and any pizza at all at Julia's (next to Breidscheid Bridge on the edge of Adenau).

I agree with visiting Berlin, and the BMW museum in Munich is pretty good too.

One thing about the Autobahn - derestricted bits are amazing but be aware that the restricted bits have speed limits enforced pretty rigorously. Plus the Germans don't seem to accommodate casual speeding like the rest of Europe...

Feel free to PM if you want specifics, and who knows - I may be over there around that time myself. I've done about 1700 laps so would be happy to show you the way around ;)
 
#13 ·
"Riding" would be correct. All but 20-odd of those laps have been on a bike.

I definitely do know where the track goes though, and am happy enough going round in a car as well. Just not quite as fast...
 
#15 ·
I've traveled around Germany a bit and I had a great time. A couple of of additions on top of what everyone else has said. If you're interested, you can take a guided tour of the BMW factory next to the BMW Welt and Museum. You have to make a reservation, so I would give them a call and see how far ahead you can reserve a tour. Also, if you are a BMW CCA member, you get a slightly discounted entrance fee at the museum as long as you bring and show your CCA card.

I imagine whatever car they give you to rent, you'll be able to hit at least 100 mph. When I rented the basic tier car from Avis in Germany, they gave me a manual Mercedes A180 Diesel and that thing topped out at just under 120 mph.

Before you drive the Autobahn, I'll recommend having all the signs and associated German memorized. I remember seeing the Derestricted sign, and then see a 130 kph limit sign with a "bei nasser" underneath it with a wavey sign. I was confused at first until others are flying past me still and I figured out that that roughly translated to "when wet". Same thing in the cities, where the sign may indicate restricted zones but would be in German only. Oh! And don't forget that you can't turn right on red.

For World War II stuff, just outside of Munich is Dachau concentration camp. It was one of the most sobering and depressing places I've ever visited, but I'm glad I went. It can be something seen in an afternoon. Then to add to what jamiepeers said about the Zeppelinfeld grandstand at Nuremberg, it was still open to the public when I visited a couple of years ago. However, they've left it to decay; and understandably, it's not really being maintained, and is really access at your own risk (there's even a sign saying that). With that said, you can climb on to the platform that Hitler stood making speeches at those rallies. Kinda eerie.

Have fun, and take plenty of pictures!
 
#45 ·
If you're interested, you can take a guided tour of the BMW factory next to the BMW Welt and Museum. You have to make a reservation, so I would give them a call and see how far ahead you can reserve a tour.

Tim and Norb, it sounds like a blast! Looking forward to the pics and stories. Factory tour is impressive. You start at the very beginning of the process (sheet metal coming into the factory to be stamped into panels) and end with the cars being loaded onto the freight carriers. You see the process from start to finish. Totally awesome. As noted above, call well in advance because the English-language tours are limited and can fill up fast. Initially, you can email them to inquire about the tour, but you have to place an actual call to Germany to reserve it.
 
#16 · (Edited)
You can drive almost all around Europe 100mph... Just watch for the cops and stationary radars... If you are going to Austria, stick to the limit because there are alot of radars or update your navi unit with POI points of radars...

On the Autobahn after 22h there is alot of unrestricted zones if there is not heavy traffic or bad weather. Plan your trip so that you dont fall in traffic around 15-16h around major cities...

Be careful on the Ring since its a long track and it's not wide as a casual race track so there is not alot of room for errors... Dont push it too hard..

If you plan to have a way through Slovenia give me a call...

P.S On the autobahn use the right lane... Even if you are going 250km/h there will be almost certainly someone faster than you are... :)
 
#17 ·
Thanks for all of the awesome tips and information so far guys! This is getting me excited to want to go now and not wait until Fall! I hope to have more time later today to post a longer reply and address some stuff you guys have said!

Thank you!
 
#18 ·
I plan to visit Family in the area thus great info by all.

Question about track etiquette:

If in a slower rental with faster cars closing on your back bumper quickly, do you stay on the outside of the turn and cede the apex?

Or stay on inside of turn to allow faster car the outside of turn past apex (which driver of faster car needs to complete turn at 10/10ths)?

In my mind it seems the safest is to take the fastest car you can afford in order to minimize speed differential on track.
 
#20 ·
Officially, the Ring is a public road in Germany (albeit a toll road), so the standard rules of the road apply - pass on the left only. The rental place has a video they make you watch that covers rules of the road, etiquette, etc

Supposedly, passing on the right is grounds for dismissal from the track. You'll find that Germans love rules and structure so it's typically best to not rock the boat. :)
 
#21 ·
I agree.
But watch some vids, the slow cars appear to be passed at a very high speed differential even on turns.

This could be just one reason for the many accidents.

There are numerous signs posted at track entry (Germans love signs)
but do not recall any driving rules with regards to safe passing.

Perhaps the waiver one has to sign contains the info?
 
#24 · (Edited)
If you treat the 'ring like a track (ironically) and take into account apex etc etc when letting another car pass you will be in for all sorts of abuse and angry reactions.


Although people do treat it as a racetrack, folk quickly revert to "road" manners when approaching another car or letting one pass, its kind of an understanding there. If you divert from that even with best intentions you will confuse the vast majority and that's dangerous at those speeds and will be likely what gets you the angry responses of drivers you are actually trying to help.


The excellent point above of how Germans like and respect rules and regs means they will be expecting you to behave this way; you need to adhere to them to gain respect back.


Irrespective of youtube vids 99% of people will respect this and move right to let you pass and you should always attempt to pass on the left no matter what.


Its important to be aware of your surroundings and approaching cars that are faster than you but you will have a much better and safer time, and be respected by other track users if you simply indicate right to acknowledge you have seen them, and then move over when safe to do so.


Do not enter a corner and try to hug the right side of the track in order to let a faster car pass as not only does it ruin your own experience but more importantly it can be dangerous and means that you end up looking in your mirrors more than the road ahead.


You need to remember that officially it isn't a racetrack, people shouldn't be jostling for position and that's one of the reasons that officially timing your laps is strictly forbidden. There will be people out there who want to get a great time but pretty much ell of these people exclusively understand that traffic is part and parcel of the ring experience and will chalk up a lap where they encounter such as simply one of those things. If you start to think about entry, exit, faster cars drifting wide etc etc then you are approaching this all wrong and that's what increases the risk of accidents.


When the public are on the track remember is just a toll road, not a race track, and so if someone behind gets slowed down by you then that's just the way it is, and most people accept it. If the odd one doesn't then that's their problem. If you went around a corner trying to stay off the apex and get out of the way, caught some crap off line and spun into the Armco its YOU that foots the bill and YOU that has the broken car. The guy you let past you won't likely know or care so be aware of the possible consequenses of "helping" someone you don't know shave 3 seconds off their lap time


If you find a car catches you as you approach a corner:


Indicate right to acknowledge sight of the car.
Take the corner as normal and on exit move over to the right.
Let the car pass and then move back onto your preffered line.


This ensures the safest way for all and means if you are slow, then at least your experience isn't marred worrying about everyone else for 95% of your lap.


Above all, stay safe.
 
#33 ·
No problem.


I've been a passenger numerous times around the ring with various people. A good mate of mine drives around fairly quickly and I don't have an issue with him. However I have been out with two other drivers who had exactly the mindset above and were trying to be overly nice which made our lap really quite dangerous and a good few times I felt rather uncomfortable, even though in terms of speed we were travelling was relatively slow.


You'll likely notice much more when you get over there how narrow the track actually is and just how little run off there is before barriers. Its literally 5 feet from the track in over 80% of the length of the circuit and so sticking to the plan is even more prudent concerning track etiquette
Jamie, Thanks for all of the good info you have brought to the post regarding the 'ring etiquette and tips.

We would plan to rent a car at the track, not a rental from the "street". We both agreed that it would be best to use a lower power car since we have heard and seen the videos of crashes from the 'ring biting people. There is also something to be said about running a "slow" car to the higher end of it's abilities being more fun, once comfortable with it. I guarantee both Norb and I will spend a crap load of hours reading up and watching videos so we can get the most out of the experience safely.
 
#25 ·
@jamiepeers

Thanks for the time you put into setting me straight.

You read me well, I have been overly predisposed to get out of the way of faster drivers (in order to help someone get to a hospital in time or whatever, perhaps even avoid nucleating road rage).

I always defer to faster drivers; figure they have a reason for it.

That mindset is embedded and subconscious on my part, I can see myself having taken that attitude to the Ring as well.

Good to know I need to get that out of my mind and concentrated keeping my own wheels on track. Thanks again

Always is helpful for those with experience to share knowledge.
 
#26 ·
No problem.


I've been a passenger numerous times around the ring with various people. A good mate of mine drives around fairly quickly and I don't have an issue with him. However I have been out with two other drivers who had exactly the mindset above and were trying to be overly nice which made our lap really quite dangerous and a good few times I felt rather uncomfortable, even though in terms of speed we were travelling was relatively slow.


You'll likely notice much more when you get over there how narrow the track actually is and just how little run off there is before barriers. Its literally 5 feet from the track in over 80% of the length of the circuit and so sticking to the plan is even more prudent concerning track etiquette
 
#27 · (Edited)
Absolutely true - overtake on the LEFT only.

If someone faster comes up, put the right indicator on to tell them you've seen them and just move over to the right when you can.

Sorry - hadn't seen Jamie's very comprehensive (and absolutely right) reply when I wrote this first...

One thing though. If you find yourself in something quick but are still being overhauled by something else, when you move over for them lift off a bit as well...otherwise they'll just sit there unable to get past. I chased a Z8 all the way up Kesselchen on a 600cc Suzuki. he was ever so polite and couldn't understand why I didn't pass him as he was leaving me lots of room. It's just that he nailed it and was doing around 140 up the hill and the little Suzuki didn't have the legs to do anything about it...
 
#28 ·
Good shout /\.


That has happened to me a good few times. I've caught someone fairly easily but then can't really get past as its not a great idea to be diving down the inside of folk or similar as its not racing. The only way you can get past (properly) a slower car is by both drivers cooperating and/or your vehicle has the power to get past on a straight under its own steam.


Many times in the 330i I repeatedly got stuck behind something powerful like a C63 AMG or similar and just cannot do anything about them on the straight.


A good tip if you find that (again more reason to visit on a weekday as opposed to a weekend as its very unusual to encounter that midweek) and YOU are the faster car, is slow down for a few corners and give yourself some space, then pick up your pace back to normal.


IMO you have a much more fulfilling lap by stringing together a good few corners or a complex rather than sat behind someone frustrated for half a lap.
 
#29 · (Edited)
I can tell you that, unless you bring your M5 to Autobahn, you will spend all time in Germany wishing you had brought it and just dreaming that thought over and over while driving on the Autobahn and imagining yourself in the M5, while bing in a much lesser car.

Put the M5 mid-june onto a ship towards Europe.



<iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/rQibmMN2vXk" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="480" width="853"></iframe>
 
#30 ·
I can tell you that, unless you bring your M5 to Autobahn, you will spend all time in Germany wishing you had brought it and just dreaming that thought over and over while driving on the Autobahn and imagining yourself in the M5, while bing in a much lesser car.
Agreed - driving your own E39 at illegal speeds in USA is more fun than any rental car on autobahn.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top