Dark Side-Keep My 02 M5 after Lease:Cadillac V Test Drive Impressions, Feedback?? - The Unofficial BMW M5 Messageboard (m5board.com)

Johnny D · 21st October 2004, 08:27

I have been monitoring the Cadillac forum for a while trying to be open minded about replacing the M5, maybe getting a V. I see how passionate they are about their the V but I have to tell you I hear some frustration from some of them on these issues.

1.) Vibration felt in the steering. On my test drive yesterday, car had 11 miles, I felt it at 62-65mph in different gears and on different parts of the freeway. Not a lot but noticable to where the salesman noticed it. We spoke with the service manager and he thought it was a wheel balance problem but from several comments on this board I was suspicious. They promised me a callback when they diagnosed it. No call today.

2.) Rear end noise,whine, failure etc. Sounds like the dealers are replacing bad ones, Is this issue resolved? I didn't hear it on the test drive.

3.) Shifter gets sloppy over time. There seems to be some hope from third parties on the horizon but money out of pocket to fix a design flaw. (I realize some M5 owners like the short shift so maybe the M5 shifter isn't perfect but it's been fine for me)

4.) sunroof problems. Some owners can't seem to get it ficed even after replacing the entire unit, glass and all.

5.) Mysterious dead battery.

6.) CAG Skip shift 1 to 4 when driving at less than 21% throttle, It can be fixed for $50.

7.) Wheel hop. No one to date has solved this that I have seen, another design flaw.

8.) Dash Whine, Cadillac is aware and working on a fix tech bulletin PIC3012

I am trying real hard to be open-minded but I have to tell you that my current 02 M5 whose lease is up soon is looking better and better. It's approximately the same price as the V. My steering wheel doesn't vibrate a bit at ANY speed, feels like it does when it's parked! In nearly 3 years I haven't had real issues. C'mon, for $50 large we shouldn't be talking about a car that doesn't quite seem like it's ready for prime time?

:lildevil: Alright,let me have it from both sides, my flame suit is ON

Pete · 21st October 2004, 09:15

Consumer reports doesnt think too highly of the Caddy CTS reliability. What makes anyone think the CTS-V is going to be any better?

I certainly would not want a 1st year production run car (CTS-V) from them based on their track record with the 6 banger.

You have to ask yourself how it's going to hold up over several years too.

Not that the M5 is problem free, but if yours has been reliable, you probably have a good one. Why give that car to someone else now that you found out its a keeper?

What are the odds of the caddy being as reliable or more so than the M5? Answer that for yourself , and you will know what to do.

Sounds like a Las Vegas play to me. haha

DrewKeen · 21st October 2004, 09:53

the engine will last, they've been proven. You won't be replacing cam sensors and mafs all the time.

vvanherk · 21st October 2004, 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny D

I have been monitoring the Cadillac forum for a while trying to be open minded about replacing the M5, maybe getting a V. I see how passionate they are about their the V but I have to tell you I hear some frustration from some of them on these issues.

:lildevil: Alright,let me have it from both sides, my flame suit is ON

A few years back I spend almost $50K US on a new GM product. Totally loaded out 2500 HD Diesel Pickup. I was in the dealer for issues almost once a week.

GM (and most North American companies) do not have the quality of German or Japanese products. You certainly will not get the service you might be used to either.

I will likely never buy a new GM product again. I've got a 10 year old Chev pickup. Pretty happy with that.

//vic

gsfent · 21st October 2004, 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete

I certainly would not want a 1st year production run car (CTS-V) from them based on their track record with the 6 banger.

You have to ask yourself how it's going to hold up over several years too.

I agree. Even our vaunted M5's had some early problems and upgrades that were done by 2001, the third year of production (second for US). And that is with unyielding German efficiency, which normally does not allow for too many problems before release to the public. I like the V and comparing apples to apples (new vs. new) it makes an interesting competitor, especially when price is factored in, but NO WAY would I buy a first year car from GM (and that includes the C6 Vette, another nice piece). GM has shown time and again they get it right at the end of the product cycle, not at the beginning.
Regards,
Jerry

Chuckc · 21st October 2004, 20:43

Well I purchased a Dodge Durango, sold it to get a Chevy Tahoe and finally got rid of it. I don't know if this is indicative of all GM products, but the build quality and various problems on the Tahoe were just atrocious. Even the interior started to develope an odd odor after about a year. The Durango was a bit better but still had a front end clunk that the dealer could never quite get rid of.

Lscman · 21st October 2004, 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by vvanherk

A few years back I spend almost $50K US on a new GM product. Totally loaded out 2500 HD Diesel Pickup. I was in the dealer for issues almost once a week.

GM (and most North American companies) do not have the quality of German or Japanese products. You certainly will not get the service you might be used to either.

I will likely never buy a new GM product again. I've got a 10 year old Chev pickup. Pretty happy with that.

//vic

I had just the opposite experience. After owning USA domestics from 1978 to present, I can say my E39 V8 is the most troublesome vehicle I've ever owned. My Lincoln has 275K miles and it does not cause me headaches like my 540i with 70K mi....never did. Even today, I would bet on my Lincoln in a reliability/durability comparison on the track or street. I can not even imagine the service costs and failure rate associated with an E39 showing 275K mi. A bare Corvette cylinder head costs exactly $375....a block costs $850...a NEW long block $4000, a 450HP stroker motor costs about $6K. BMW offers a 540i shortblock for $5K, reman long block $9K. You want a BMW piston, crank or connecting rod...forget it, N/A. Many assemblies are sold reman only, not new. What's up with that?

I realize my USA vs German reliability experiences are not typical. That said, I find it hard to justify buying a BMW for serious performance use when most transmission, differential and engine internal parts are not sold separately. Who in their right mind would buy a car for occasional track that requires a $10K remanufactured motor, $4K differential or $5K tranny when you break some part? I used to replace parts on my domestic vehicles in my back yard for a few bux after a rough track weekend. Worst case is you'd pay some shop to replace the broken part(s).

I neglected to uncover this "BMW parts N/A issue" when I was researching which car to buy. I understand this parts strategy is fairly new at BMW, since most internals are sold for E36. The E39 and E46 owners are just beginning to deal with this situation as their cars come off CPO. Foreign Car repair shops and jobbers can not help. BMW and Getrag are cooperatively blocking folks from making affordable repairs. This drivetrain and powertrain service/repair limitation is hard to swallow. Domestic marques do not have this issue. IMO, BMW's are being made to be serviceable only thru a CPO and lease cycle. Noisy BMW connecting rod bearing, motor transplant necessary. Noisy Corvette or CTS-V connecting rod bearing, $1500 for a new crankshaft kit. If you want to really get thrifty, get the crank cut, rod re-sized and undersize bearing kit for about $300. This repair is EFFECTIVE, but not possible on a BMW E39. Why not...I think because BMW simply does not care how much service costs after warranty expires. They want to sell you a new car. Sorry for expressing frustration about this seemingly unresolveable service problem. How will the future BMW amateur racer survive?

FAST 5 · 21st October 2004, 23:22

See the link: The new vette Z06 is getting 500 HP motor, so Im sure it will transfer overe to the Caddy CTS-V sedan, in order to compete with the new M5.

JEM · 26th October 2004, 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny D

1.) Vibration felt in the steering.

I've driven three of them now, none had any vibration issues. Our 540i had some tire imbalance when we picked it up in Munich via Euro Delivery back in '98, so I wouldn't say BMW's immune to this...

Quote:

2.) Rear end noise,whine, failure etc. Sounds like the dealers are replacing bad ones, Is this issue resolved? I didn't hear it on the test drive.

The problem seems to develop after some time, which leads me to believe that it's a wear-in problem. Given the observed amont of metal swarf that drains out of the diff housing with a fluid change, I'm suspecting that a 2000mi diff oil change will fix the whine problem. Axle-shaft failures seem to be more related to wheel-hop as a result of people pounding on the car.

Quote:

3.) Shifter gets sloppy over time.

I haven't seen this complaint.

Quote:

4.) sunroof problems. Some owners can't seem to get it ficed even after replacing the entire unit, glass and all.

There's a variety of little cheapnesses about the way GM did the moonroof on that car.

Quote:

6.) CAG Skip shift 1 to 4 when driving at less than 21% throttle, It can be fixed for $50.

Well, it can be fixed for 15 cents if you want to tape a resistor into the harness...

Quote:

7.) Wheel hop. No one to date has solved this that I have seen, another design flaw.

I think it's more a tuning flaw, and suspect it can be mostly diddled with different bushings if and when someone gets around to doing it right.

I haven't been in a position to hammer on any of the cars I've driven enough to provoke this, or to determine whether the FG2 shocks offer any improvement.

I've driven one car with the BMR kit and would not use it for a daily-driver - the increase in harshness is noticeable, and rod-ends don't hold up on the street.

Quote:

8.) Dash Whine, Cadillac is aware and working on a fix tech bulletin PIC3012

Haven't heard of this one.

Quote:

I am trying real hard to be open-minded but I have to tell you that my current 02 M5 whose lease is up soon is looking better and better.
.snip.
C'mon, for $50 large we shouldn't be talking about a car that doesn't quite seem like it's ready for prime time?

Well, let me put it this way: the CTS-V is a lot of bang for the buck - given the level of content, $50K is fairly cheap.

GM also did a number of things better than BMW did on the E39. It's got incredibly good brakes. The Stabilitrak is amazingly good - it will let you drive the car, it will let you hang the rear end out and work the chassis - this alone makes the CTS-V a very tempting proposition. The nav/stereo/electrogadgetry is a lot better than any E39 (or E60 for that matter.) And the steering doesn't have the low-speed heavy/dead feel of the recirculating ball setup in the V8 E39 cars.

But it's a GM product, and one built to sell at a more aggressive price point than a 5-series. So it's got a number of Detroit-mindset design characteristics like the pedal-type parking brake, and a few cut corners like the headliner not attached around the moonroof opening and the steering wheel that goes up and down but not in and out, and the material quality isn't quite up to BMW spec. The shape is a matter of personal taste, but the high beltline makes for somewhat poorer visibility over the nose (not as bad as that Chrysler 300 thing, though) and for some reason the rear seat just isn't as comfortable as the E39 (my head hits the glass in the CTS.)

Would I buy one? Yes. I haven't heard anything about it that really scares me off, and it feels great to drive. The seats are better than they look, and I believe its reliability will be good enough. And the value-for-money is right - you can get into one for $45K or so, which won't even get you a new E60 530i.

But would I trade my E39 M5 for one? Not so far.

TurboCarrera · 26th October 2004, 20:02

Some years ago I told my wife, in the presence of our lawyer, that she could declare me mentally incompetent if she ever saw me on a Cadillac lot.

Steve
00 M5
87 E30
99 996
76 930
64 356C
62 356B
98 E320
85 300SD