Stop/start traffic nightmare! New M5 user - Sydney - BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums
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post #1 of 9 Old 31st July 2015, 03:59 AM Thread Starter
GreenM5
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Stop/start traffic nightmare! New M5 user - Sydney

After some weeks waiting for approval to join the board, it is now my time to introduce myself and discuss the existing issues that are preventing me from fully enjoying the Green beast. Like Shrek but with Carrera's, Air Max's and bulging 'roid muscles!

I bought this car from fellow M5 board member Lumsden in Brisbane, after many weeks looking at M3's my eyes lit up at the M5 and I got excited. Really, really excited. So after some long phone calls and a lot of keen BMW questions I took the punt and flew up there with cash and drove the car the 650 miles back to Sydney all in the space of 4 days. Talk about impulsive!

Now it might have been the way I was driving the car but the further I got into the drive back and especially as I got into Sydney, I noticed some lull at around 2-2.5k rev range. This turned into a full jerk whenever I changed gear in this range or if I was coming on/off the accelerator. Just to give you some specific details on my vehicle:

172k miles on body
66k miles BMW engine rebuild (piston rings)
106k miles on current engine
fastidiously maintained on time all the time including g/box and diff
Castrol 10w60 and 98RON fuel used throughout the life

To boot (I know this would make some owners jealous) I bought a bottle of 10w60 thinking that top up after nearly 1000 miles would be necessary. It was not. Dipstick is still on maximum line from when I picked it up in Brisbane. Gear changes are smooth and I don't need to force - occasionally I need to double clutch to get it into first when stopped but this is no big deal.

Onto the PROBLEM:

I get what I thought was a hesitation but I am now thinking is more of a clutch slip after I change gears and apply the throttle. I have test drove an M5 and M3 before and have owned a E46 manual before so am certain this is not me not driving it incorrectly. I am also certain it isn't the clutch wearing out because it bites HARD when it reengages.

This doesn't happen if I have had the gear engaged for a longer period and I can put my foot down in 2nd and fly ahead into 3rd, 4th fine higher up the torque band / rev range. If I stay in gear and allow the range to go close to idle and take my foot off and then back on the gas quickly then this HARD clutch bite comes back into play.

One evening I had VBR on (to test MAFs) and noticed that when this jerk happens, the consumption climbs to about 45-55 l/100km.

I did a launch at some annoying red lights (the ones that stop traffic when there are no cars waiting) and the bite was there as I ran through the gears but it was much a quicker bite.

What I have done so far:

First thing was to post and bother everyone without doing a code read, secondly was to get codes read! I met up with a fellow M5 owner who gave me some spare MAFs and put the Peake reader onto the vehicle. I got a:

16 - VANOS exhaust 1-4 - could be a cps (changed less than 24 months ago (15k miles) with Bosch ones. VANOS o-rings and solenoid boards re-soldered and replaced recently.
AA - secondary air system - normal, can't be helped. No CEL so not bothering me. Needs a good blast with exhaust manifold off.

I spoke with a guy at a local specialist in Sydney yesterday, Bimmertech, about the possibility it could be my DMF failing. I have been through a decade of service history receipts and there isn't a record of the DMF or clutch ever being done. Suggesting that the clutch could be briefly slipping at the beginning of the engine torque range because the DMF springs are failing to properly support when the clutch and engine mate.

All thoughts are welcomed and I hope I haven't come across as a complete noob.

Leon

Driveway history:
E39 - 2002 M5 - Oxford Green with carmel interior - current
E38 - 1997 750iL - Black with black interior
E46 - 2002 330i Convertible - Gold with gold interior
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post #2 of 9 Old 31st July 2015, 06:30 AM
chowdah
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Welcome to the board.

Can't speak to the clutch phenomenon, but the common "secret menu MAFS test" on this board is measured in L/hr, and it's not the error codes that were there when you got the car that matter as much as the ones that come back after you clear them.
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post #3 of 9 Old 31st July 2015, 06:33 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chowdah View Post
Welcome to the board.

Can't speak to the clutch phenomenon, but the common "secret menu MAFS test" on this board is measured in L/hr, and it's not the error codes that were there when you got the car that matter as much as the ones that come back after you clear them.
I had a feeling the first reply would be something I haven't done yet. Ok, you won't hear from me again until I have done a clear and a re-read

Driveway history:
E39 - 2002 M5 - Oxford Green with carmel interior - current
E38 - 1997 750iL - Black with black interior
E46 - 2002 330i Convertible - Gold with gold interior
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post #4 of 9 Old 31st July 2015, 05:51 PM
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The 16 you see first on the Peak reader actually 1b, which isn't a code, it's the table you need to look at in the Peak book, aka table 18. So really you only have the AA code which has nothing to do with your problem.

I find your description of the problem quite hard to understand since it's not clear if you have an engine problem like power loss, or a drivetrain problem like severe snatch.

You said, "If I stay in gear and allow the range to go close to idle and take my foot off and then back on the gas quickly then this HARD clutch bite comes back into play." This makes me think you have some serious slack in the drivetrain. That can give a real hard jerk as the drivetrain loads and unloads. Could be giubo or differential support bushings, amongst other things.

Malcolm

Last edited by 68FB; 31st July 2015 at 05:51 PM.
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post #5 of 9 Old 1st August 2015, 10:40 AM Thread Starter
GreenM5
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68FB

Thank you for responding to my post. I have read a lot of yours on the board whilst researching and awaiting member confirmation, and you know your stuff so please forgive for the oversight into the codes. When myself and my fellow M5 friend in Sydney were reading the codes I distinctly remember seeing 1b, not 16. My friend looked up the code in the manual and thinking he was looking up 1b I thought that 1b was the 16 code explanation. Had I paid attention I would've saved myself explaining.

So that's great news, isn't it? No codes?! Well potentially no given the fault finding I now need to do.

The drivetrain jerk happens everytime I change gear at the lower end of the rev range and I am change up quickly and efficiently. Like you would driving any car around town. To get a smooth and no jerk drive I have to set off slowly, steady and drop it into the next gear slowly and steadily when the engine speed has fallen to around the 1k rev range.

When the jerk happens the VBR l/100km climbs quite a bit, like if you were rolling in neutral and revving the engine.

Next week I will be able to get the car up on stands and do a proper visual inspection of the giubo. I know that the differential bushes and seals need doing, 1 bush mount is completely shot and the other is very close. I knew this when buying the car.

Driveway history:
E39 - 2002 M5 - Oxford Green with carmel interior - current
E38 - 1997 750iL - Black with black interior
E46 - 2002 330i Convertible - Gold with gold interior

Last edited by GreenM5; 1st August 2015 at 10:43 AM.
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post #6 of 9 Old 2nd August 2015, 01:22 AM Thread Starter
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A video for better context

https://youtu.be/zfqVBPxJA1c

Driveway history:
E39 - 2002 M5 - Oxford Green with carmel interior - current
E38 - 1997 750iL - Black with black interior
E46 - 2002 330i Convertible - Gold with gold interior

Last edited by GreenM5; 2nd August 2015 at 01:24 AM.
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post #7 of 9 Old 2nd August 2015, 06:33 AM
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Hmm, it's still not quite clear what you are experiencing. Could be something well worn in the drivetrain, for example engine mounts, giubo, etc. Or it could be the infamous M5 jerky throttle response, which has been discussed here many times with the usual fix being installing a modified tune in the DME.

Is this thread relevant?

Mechanical hesitation(?) upon acceleration

And reading through this long thread may give you some ideas:

Stop/start traffic nightmare! New M5 user - Sydney

Malcolm
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post #8 of 9 Old 2nd August 2015, 07:09 AM
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No codes but AA pleases me-
I helped this member do his vanos board maintenance :-)
We did the orings and cleaning, and he got a professional shop to re solder the boards.
I never drove the car but went on test rides in it and it seemed fine compared with my 145,000km car, and he thought it was very smooth and completely cured of all hesitations it used to have. We checked codes every couple weeks after and it was all good.
Only thing I noticed was slight whine in second gear compared to mine and another member down here.
Also the vanos covers are the early type with no tensioner grub screws.
Welcome to the board!
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post #9 of 9 Old 2nd August 2015, 09:37 AM Thread Starter
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manualshifter

thank you for the welcome! you must be the other M5 owner who Mr Cxxxxr used to meet on occasions and talk techy BMW stuff with

Malcom

Thank you for the continued advice, the links helped and searched generally for BMW clunk in drivetrain has given me some further clues. One member whose subframe mounts had perished was causing the diff to hit the subframe every time he changed gears. Went for a drive today with the wife and the car is very smooth. Changing into 2nd quickly you can feel some disengagement or at least reluctance to engage properly until you have let the engine speed and drivetrain catch up and mate with each other properly.

Engine mounts were done with the last two years but I do know that transmission mounts need doing, might even be completely shot. This might be giving too much torsion and causing a delay to engage - possibly. Next week I will have her up in the air to do handbrake adjustment, might even do transmission mounts while I am there and check for play in the axel and up to the diff, check all other mounts and bushes whilst I am there.

Will be reporting back once I have done thing and thank you for giving me a different way to think about this as well as pointing out the 1b/16 error code mistake, had almost pushed the button on a BMW cps the other day,

Driveway history:
E39 - 2002 M5 - Oxford Green with carmel interior - current
E38 - 1997 750iL - Black with black interior
E46 - 2002 330i Convertible - Gold with gold interior
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