Hello members thank you for opening post. just need some help and guidance trouble shooting my SAS issue, i have searched around and found many good topics, been searching since past Friday and i think i definitely need help now. Long story Short...
took my car to get smog Los Angeles California (Star) and from what i been reading California its the only place where all vehicle from 00+ Need to pass with 0 faulty emission related Test :crying and here is where my vehicle failed from OBD showed my car SAS Not Ready. I have tried to troubleshoot several factors that could affect it.
- More driving cold start ups
- i follow treads referring to checking relay under cabin filter and fuse #107 under passenger seat (everything) has voltage.
-applied 12v directly to pump it turns ON and blows hard :eek .
Here is the issue:
on cold start up, Pump turns on for 1-2 sec and shuts off i tested relay and it clicks check Ohms
i disconnected hose on pump and started vehicle (thinking that maybe something is clogged up and making it shut off) but same problem turns on 1-2 secs shuts off and my OBD still shows incomplete not ready.
Any help will be highly appreciated thank you for your time. hope someone could vouch in and maybe this tread could help someone else other then me. thanks again members :goldcup:
That is a totally new one. Have you tested for power at the terminal that activates the relay. That comes from the DME and if it shuts off after two seconds then likely the previous owner tuned the car and did a SAS delete. So check at the DME or relay for power.
If the car has a tune then there is no telling what else may have been changed concerning the SAS. You may get it ready by jumping the relay manually and running the pump for 2 min and see if it will get ready. Do that twice on two separate cold starts. I suspect on the second attempt you will get a SES lit and the code for low flow will show. If there is no mods that remove the pump it does not make sense that someone would tune out the SAS unless it had plugged passages and was throwing a light.
IIRC the old powerchip tune turned off the pump.
Thank you for your reply i been thinking the same thing maybe it has a SAS delete i dont have any light on cluster or errors. but im sure i would have detected it last time i took it to Smog and they would of brought it to my attention. this isn't the first time i smog vehicle. vehicle other then muffler delete is stock.
and when you mention to check for power on terminals where relay connects i have done everything this Tread says
there was and update where it says 12v should be flowing on #30 (where relay connects) if no 12v 50A fuse is bad Picture on post is before update on Tread. Update was (#87 should be hot all times) and yes it is i check with voltmeter and found 12v everywhere on relay connector and on fuse under passenger seat.
by the way how can i jump relay manually a little more help please :grin ?
meanwhile ima look into IIRC powerchip TUNE never read about it im clueless on it.
Give me some time I will dig into the wiring diagrams. I browsed that DIY and some things are just wrong so patience. You should check but a few years ago you used to be able to have 1 or 2 not readies in Cali on a 2000, if that is true that is how you passed in the past.
Lets test your relay first. On the bench apply 12 v to 86 then ground 85, it should go click and stay that way. Now check with your volt meter that 30 and 87 are 0 ohms while actively energizing 86 and 85. With your symptoms if the relay stays clicked for more than 2 secs it is not likely the problem.
With the relay out go to the socket where it was plugged in and with a wire put one end where 30 would be and the other end where 87 would be. The fan should come on and stay on. If you do that with a cold car(running) for 2 mins that should get you partway home.
Even if the check engine did not come on check for codes. Wait 2 hours then repeat. If you still have no SES do it again one more time and then button it up and go to your smog place and see if it went ready. If it did not then you have to track down a tuner that can read your program and he will tell you if it is stock.
Then they will charge you a fortune to make it say ready even though it is not. At this point they would likely charge you the same fortune to return your car to stock and you would still fail the smog because on a stock tune odds are you will throw the AA code for low flow.
Thank you this is interesting. i check the relay yesterday energized 85-86 and it marked on 87 and 30 0 ohms so i guess i discard the relay being faulty
and just any piece a wire should do ? i know 87 has 12v running in it and 30 has 0v no energy there's and 87a that has 0v also just trowing out there.
when you say fan are you referring to the pumps ?
and if i will have to go see a tuner that will be a bummer :frown anyone else out there that could vouch some ideas or solutions?
thanks a lot sailor24 for your great help man, ima go try the wiring thing after i go get my young one from school :grin
30 should have 12 and 87 should have 0. If it is not that report back. 87 is the feed to the motor, 30 is from fuse 107. 87a is a path to ground when the relay is not active. That drains any power from the motor that is created as it spins down. The pump is a fan of sorts they call it a pump because it can create pressure. It is a vacuum motor .
A wire will do just fine a paper clip is commonly used but its gauge is small and will get hot. Try a 18-16 gauge wire.
did that Mean fan did not turn on? Have no idea what o.0 means. Are you sure you are in the correct holes because looking at the relay then finding the correct pin can be confusing because it is mirrored. I see no way to have 12 at 87 but if you have 0 at 30 then fuse 107 is blown or a wire from it is fried.
You must be confusing the pins. Here is the diagram 30 at the relay is connected to the fuse 107. 87 goes to the motor which has no volts at all. If there really was 12v at 87 then the motor would be running. So please check your pins again I don't want to help you burn something up. If you happen to send 12v back to the DME bad things might happen.
You must be confusing the pins. Here is the diagram 30 at the relay is connected to the fuse 107. 87 goes to the motor which has no volts at all. If there really was 12v at 87 then the motor would be running. So please check your pins again I don't want to help you burn something up. If you happen to send 12v back to the DME bad things might happen.
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I will take some pictures asap and post them up so you could see what im talking about. But wen i did hook it up with wire it turn on i will get back with the pics as soon as i can. But some where on the tread some one mentioned the fuse was direct with 87 and not 30
I am not dissing a thread elsewhere but there is a ton of bad info in that thread. The OP of that thread really does not completely understand how electrical devices work together.
Well there is another first. I have never found a mistake in the wiring diagrams but clearly the wiring diagram does not agree with the diagram on the side of the relay. So it does appear 87 and 30 are switched, here nor there as they are the two you want. Repeat the jump on a few starts and see if you get a code.
Yeah had me beign ??? also, i will try to jump it again hopefully it will activate
readiness, but what do you think on 86 ?? 86 reads 12v with switch on ? Should i try jumping 86-30 ? Thanks alot for your help ☺?
Leave 86 and 85 alone that is the control circuit from the computer. And stop testing 85 all together it should be path to ground when the DME wants the fan/pump on. Drawing those volts out of the DME when it is not switched??? I have no idea what is going on when you do that but I suspect it is not good. Just leave those two alone.
Well i came back home from driving vehicle after jumping wires and connecting the relay back and...
From link online shows
P0418 Secondary Air Injection System Relay ‘A" Circuit Malfunction.
That is because it is unplugged. We really need to know if SAS has gone ready. We can get around this easily enough with two wires under the plug and the relay installed. You can just join the wires when you need and the pump will run but with the relay installed the diagnostics run between 68 and 85 will still be good.
There is no sense in that if you are not going to trigger ready from it.
Most of those phone apps read readiness of devices, have a look through it or download one that does.
Okay i will be doing that next, from what im understanding
place 2 wires one on 87 and one on 30. Install relay.
There will be 1 end sticking out of each (30 , 87)
turn vehicle on
Bridge both ends of wires to one, energize for 2min,
unbridge after.
Correct me if im wrong ?
Just wanna make sure i understood correct ☺
Image attach was from previous scan. Application lets me see monitors.
Well just got the chance today to bridge wires with relay placed on and that didnt go well i believe i shorted out fuse 107 now ? lost 12v on 87 with vehicle off/on :eek ima try to check for fuse later on today to verified ima be ordering it new fuse and relay just for kicks. Will see what it does after that.
Sailor got his instructions correct. I guess one of the temporary wires must have shorted to ground. The pump draws about 20A so wires heavy enough to handle that are a bit tricky to push into the relay plug and then get the relay installed on top of them.
Sounds like the energizing coil in the relay is OK since you get the click when you connect 12V across 86 and 85. (You can check the coil with an ohmmeter across 85 and 86. Resistance should be around 80 ohms. That's why voltage measured at 85 is only 4 volts. It's the drop across the coil.) And it sounds like the main contacts are being closed by the coil since you saw 0 ohms between 87 and 30 when the coil was energized. It may be the main contacts in the relay are burnt. I have seen that cause current to suddenly stop after a while from the contacts heating up due to their high resistance.
There is an relatively easy way to check if you have the confidence:
Remove the orange cover on the relay. It is held on by the 4 clips. They can be pried away from the base so the cover can be gently pried off. Don't jab inside the cover too far with the screwdrivers/picks/whatever you use, as it may damage the relay, although they are pretty tough.
Inspect the main contacts for burning/blackness. It will need a bright light and good eyesight. The first pic shows them.
Install the uncovered relay into the plug on the car with ignition off.
Press the main contacts together with your finger. The fan should start immediately and continue running as long as you hold the contacts together. The second pic shows this.
You will see a spark between the contacts when you release them. That's normal.
Start cold engine with the relay still uncovered.
Confirm the main contacts have closed and the fan is running.
Watch contacts as engine runs. After 1-2 minutes, you should see the contacts open and the fan stop.
If contacts don't close when you start the engine, close them with your finger. If fan runs, something is wrong with the energizing coil, or the DME start signal isn't getting to the relay.
Sailor got his instructions correct. I guess one of the temporary wires must have shorted to ground. The pump draws about 20A so wires heavy enough to handle that are a bit tricky to push into the relay plug and then get the relay installed on top of them.
Sounds like the energizing coil in the relay is OK since you get the click when you connect 12V across 86 and 85. (You can check the coil with an ohmmeter across 85 and 86. Resistance should be around 80 ohms. That's why voltage measured at 85 is only 4 volts. It's the drop across the coil.) And it sounds like the main contacts are being closed by the coil since you saw 0 ohms between 87 and 30 when the coil was energized. It may be the main contacts in the relay are burnt. I have seen that cause current to suddenly stop after a while from the contacts heating up due to their high resistance.
There is an relatively easy way to check if you have the confidence:
Remove the orange cover on the relay. It is held on by the 4 clips. They can be pried away from the base so the cover can be gently pried off. Don't jab inside the cover too far with the screwdrivers/picks/whatever you use, as it may damage the relay, although they are pretty tough.
Inspect the main contacts for burning/blackness. It will need a bright light and good eyesight. The first pic shows them.
Install the uncovered relay into the plug on the car with ignition off.
Press the main contacts together with your finger. The fan should start immediately and continue running as long as you hold the contacts together. The second pic shows this.
You will see a spark between the contacts when you release them. That's normal.
Start cold engine with the relay still uncovered.
Confirm the main contacts have closed and the fan is running.
Watch contacts as engine runs. After 1-2 minutes, you should see the contacts open and the fan stop.
If contacts don't close when you start the engine, close them with your finger. If fan runs, something is wrong with the energizing coil, or the DME start signal isn't getting to the relay.
Thanks for commenting and taking your time to chip in, this is something new ima try today and see where this leads :smile, sailor been real helpful also :M5thumbs:
Here are some picture and video (hope you can view) of relay seems to be working fine not burnt, I installed it on vehicle and watch how it closed (fan on) when vehicle was started cold but automatically open back 1 second after.(shutting off). hmmmhmmmhmmm
I had press contacts together before when vehicle was off and fan pump turn on
Try just holding the relay closed as per the previous idea, but I really suspect you have a tune and will never set the SAP ready. You will need a new tune. Have you tried to ask the PO if he has the stock tune stored on a computer somewhere?
I will try to hold it manually (hopefully i dont burn fuse again :7: its a PITA i put everything back together already :7 and for my luck i don't have any contact with previous owner since i bought vehicle back in 2012, so to find out i'm going to do what 68fb suggested (below)
The 30 contact can connect to two contacts, the 87a when the relay is not energized and the 87 when energized. Just to be sure, you checked the 87 contacts for burning, the ones that close when the fan is running?
As sailor suggests, when the pump shuts off after 1 second, if you can restart it by closing the contacts manually, then it's something in the tune.
You could 100% confirm this by finding the brown/blue wire from 85 to the DME (shown on the wiring diagram above) in the harness from the relay. Stick a pin through the insulation so it contacts the internal conductor, and connect the red probe of a multimeter to it. Connect the black probe to a good ground on the engine or body.
On a cold start, confirm voltage at the pin is 12V when the key is on, engine off, drops to ~4 V for that second of running and then goes back to 12V when the pump stops. Going back to 12V proves the DME has disconnected the coil ground connection to stop the pump.
Okay this is a new task i will be doing in a bit and report back with findings just want to clear up the instruction:
-remove relaly
-Find wire that connects to 85 on relay (wire directs to DME)
-Insert a pin thru insulation to contact wire (Pin is to test with volt meter)
- Reconnect relay
-With ignition On (Vehicle off) it should have 12v
-Start engine volt should drops to 4 (pump activates)
-If it returns to 12v pump disconnects (this means DME shut it off)
TUNE ?
Just wanted to clear it for me, i tend to get lost while reading thru paragraph please feel free to correct me if i understood wrong :grin
FYI, the DME decides if and for how long the pump should run. WDS says it's based on coolant temp, engine load, and engine speed. I suspect SAP start is based on coolant temp, and run time is based on engine load and speed during the run time.
Thanks for information from what i was reading previously somewhere i cant recall at moment was that pump activates if coolant is below 111F-114F (dont quote me correct) and while o2 sensor is on open loop, it then shuts off after coolant reaches its Temperature and o2 sensor goes to close loop. :grin
The 30 contact can connect to two contacts, the 87a when the relay is not energized and the 87 when energized. Just to be sure, you checked the 87 contacts for burning, the ones that close when the fan is running?
As sailor suggests, when the pump shuts off after 1 second, if you can restart it by closing the contacts manually, then it's something in the tune.
You could 100% confirm this by finding the brown/blue wire from 85 to the DME (shown on the wiring diagram above) in the harness from the relay. Stick a pin through the insulation so it contacts the internal conductor, and connect the red probe of a multimeter to it. Connect the black probe to a good ground on the engine or body.
On a cold start, confirm voltage at the pin is 12V when the key is on, engine off, drops to ~4 V for that second of running and then goes back to 12V when the pump stops. Going back to 12V proves the DME has disconnected the coil ground connection to stop the pump.
FYI, the DME decides if and for how long the pump should run. WDS says it's based on coolant temp, engine load, and engine speed. I suspect SAP start is based on coolant temp, and run time is based on engine load and speed during the run time.
On a cold start, confirm voltage at the pin is 12V when the key is on, engine off, drops to ~4 V for that second of running and then goes back to 12V when the pump stops. Going back to 12V proves the DME has disconnected the coil ground connection to stop the pump.
Malcolm can you explain this 12-4-12 volt sequence? If you have 12V at pin 85 the coil should close the switch and power the pump no?
I would have guessed a 0-12-0 sequence.....
I think WDS is using relative terms. Everything is based on engine load and speed. More specifically SAP would run within the parameters of the test. In this chart you find them listed. From my experience the pump runs if the coolant is below a temp even if it is too cold. Also I had that system for not allowing the test to run, but the pump stayed on. It seems to run almost always a specific time, I think the test does not run based on the parameters, the pump is dumber and just runs based on likely a rad start temp. Then it likely shuts of if the SAP test can no longer be preformed.
Hey guys comming back from task i located brown and blue wire that connect to 85 on relay hardness
when ignition switch was on (vehicle off) it gave me 12v and when i started vehicle (cold) volt drop close to 0 And it went back to 12v, on relay it closed and open.
After 2nd intend it just stay on constant 12v when vehicle turn on.
Im posting some picture so you guys can see, ima let car sit for a couple hours and i will try to record video for better understanding.
Hey guys comming back from task i located brown and blue wire that connect to 85 on relay hardness
when ignition switch was on (vehicle off) it gave me 12v and when i started vehicle (cold) volt drop close to 0 And it went back to 12v, on relay it closed and open.
After 2nd intend it just stay on constant 12v when vehicle turn on.
Im posting some picture so you guys can see, ima let car sit for a couple hours and i will try to record video for better understanding.
If the voltage went from 0 to 12V when the main relay contacts opened, then the DME is definitely commanding the SAP to shut down.
Weird that a tune to disable SA would run the pump for a second. Maybe to exercise the bearings, brushes, etc. so it doesn't seize up from lack of use?
When the DME didn't call for a pump start the second time, was that because the coolant had warmed up?
Here is video, sorry for quality i had to shorten it for upload purposes due to this pixels quality is bad.
Okay well here is voltmeter connected to pierced wired.
ignition off (0 volts)
ignition ON (12 volts)
vehicle start (12volts drop close to zero) pay attentionn to relay how it closes and open while this occur.
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