How would the E39 have done? - The Unofficial BMW M5 Messageboard (m5board.com)

MEnthusiast · 3rd May 2004, 15:21

This is what I am left wondering after reading the latest comparison article in the June 2004 Road & Track. The E60 was humbled coming in a surprising 6th out of 7 vehicles. The order of finish is below, along with the point totals:

7- Volvo S80 T6: 537.8
6- BMW 530i: 541.5
5- Audi A6: 542.3
4- Chrysler 300: 544.8
3- Jaguar S-Type: 546.8
2- Mercedes-Benz E320: 553.6
1- Cadillac CTS: 569.3

So to recap, the good folks at Road & Track rated an Audi, Chrysler, Jaguar, Mercedes, and a Cadillac over a BMW?!!! Has a very warm place froze over? Are the editors over at R&T on drugs? Just what's happening here?!

To be sure, the BMW was the most expensive car in the test. If we take price out you get this order of finish:

7- Chrysler 300: 344.8
6- Audi A6: 355.8
5- Volvo S80 T6: 357.5
4- Jaguar S-Type: 367.0
3- BMW 530i: 369.1
2- Mercedes Benz E320: 376.0
1- Cadillac CTS: 382.7

Take a look at how this is arrived at- performance ratings and subjective ratings:

In performance ratings, the E60 did not win a single category, save for fuel economy- and that was a 4 way tie. Most surprisingly, it trailed the CTS, E320, S Type and S80 T6 in the Slalom. Here is the order of finish for the Performance ratings:

7- Chrysler 300: 184.0
6- Audi A4: 184.7
5- Jaguar S-Type: 188.9
4- BMW 530i: 191.9
3- Volvo S80 T60: 192.3
2- Cadillac CTS: 194.2
1- Mercedes Benz E320: 195.3

Looking at the subjective ratings is a tale of the good, the bad and the ugly for the E60. The kind of good: 2nd to the CTS in driving excitement, 2nd to the E320 for gearbox, 2nd to the CTS for steering, 2nd to the CTS for brakes, 2nd to the CTS for handling, 2nd to the CTS & S80 for seats. The Bad: the engine is ranked 3rd, behind the CTS and the E320. Remind me what the "M" in BMW stands for again? This should never be the case. Now for the ugly: unsurprisingly, they slammed BMW for its styling and idrive. Specifically, the E60 finished dead last for exterior styling, finished mid pack for interior styling and finished dead last for ergonomics/ controls, by w aide margin- the E60 scored a 6.6 and the next closest was the E320 at 8.7.

The subjective ratings scores are:
7- Chrysler 300: 160.8
6- Volvo S60 T6: 165.2
5- Audi A6: 171.1
4- BMW 530i: 177.2
3- Jaguar S-Type: 178.1
2- Mercedes Benz E320: 180.7
1- Cadillac CTS: 188.5

Here are some selected quotes on each vehicle:
On the Volvo they say: The silky-smooth 2.9-liter inline-6 builds boost quickly, so that you have little warning of the turbos kicking in-until the revs climb and the car zings it self down the road.

530i: The inability to get what you want, when you want it, out of the sound and climate controls is a constant irritant, and people don't buy cars to be irritated. They have computers at home for that.

A6: The Quattro's got some rally car in it, albeit softened a bit for civilian use.

Chrysler 300: It's a chassis without any discernible faults: the suspension is simply tuned more toward everyday driving than the sport end of the spectrum.

Jaguar S-Type: It has good grip and tenacity in hard cornering, with a balanced, nicely coupled interaction between front and rear suspensions.

Mercedes Benz E320: No matter hard you push, the E320 is unflustered by dips and other sudden transitions.

Cadillac CTS: The most athletic feeling of the group, with firm sprints, direct steering and a sticky tire at each corner, of the body. Its what the BMW should feel like.

So Im left wondering how the E39 would have stacked up. I think it would have done just as well, if not better. And that leaves me wondering something. Is the E60 really progress?

Thoughts? Comments?

Mine are- from various test drives, in some ways the E60 is light years ahead of the E39, but overall, I don't find it as "endearing" because things are too muted (perhaps due to run flat tires+active steering). And while active roll stabilization is great, BMW used to just do the basics well and leave all that active stuff to Mercedes and the others. On the ever discussed topic of idrive, I think the test nailed it- its too much in your face.

Now Cadillac seems to be doing the basics right and look where they finish in the comparison. If I were looking for a new mid-level sedan, Id go test drive the CTS and E320- something I would never have done before as a life long BMW fan.

CSBM5 · 3rd May 2004, 16:23

It's pretty sad, isn't it? BMW is way behind the eight ball on engine performance in the E60. They never should have booked a development plan for the E60 that basically brought over the 6-cylinder engines from the previous platform. What was ok to pretty good in 1996, power-to-weight wise is now way behind the pack, especially for the 45-55k price range that the 525 and 530 operate in. As for the rest of the car, I guess they can only hope to find new customers as a large percentage of traditional BMW sport sedan market buyers simply aren't enthused with the design, myself included. I've been driving, buying, modifying and racing BMWs since 1975, and the E65 and E60 are the first two new products from BMW in that time that I have almost no desire to own, much less lust after. My father has been buying BMWs since 1972, and each 7-series from his first 4-speed stick model in 1980 (he waited for the 3-way catalyst since the '78 and '79 cars had the ridiculous thermal converters) to his 1997 740iL, he has looked forward to, bought, and enjoyed extensively. He will never buy an E65...I think the dinky/goofy gear lever on the column did it in not to mention the I-drive and seat controls that are almost impossible to use -- this after closing one's eyes and accepting the Bangle-butt atrocity.

BMW has managed to "stay on message" for the better part of 30 years from the initial "big motor" sports sedan (1972 3.0 Bavaria in the USA) with a slight deviation in 1982 (in the USA) when they only had the 121hp 528e -- they got the message real quick that year, and the 533i was here for 1983. Apparently the "new blood" at BMW has decided "the message" is no longer valid in today's world.

I realize I must be an old fart now at 45, and that being a serious car enthusiast, 24-year member of BMWCCA, rampant BMW fanatic, etc, apparently disqualifies me for BMW's "new" market approach. The 996TT looks awfully interesting these days

TCM · 3rd May 2004, 16:42

Interesting results. I am very surprised to see BMW fall that far behind the competition, but congratulations to Cadillac for getting it right. They must be very pleased. It will be interesting to see how the V8 sedans stack up with each other. I am sure the 545 will hold its own much better then the 530 as the price different is not that much. Thanks for sharing this with us Jerry.

Teutonaddict · 3rd May 2004, 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by MEnthusiast

...in some ways the E60 is light years ahead of the E39, but overall, I don't find it as "endearing" because things are too muted (perhaps due to run flat tires+active steering). And while active roll stabilization is great, BMW used to just do the basics well and leave all that active stuff to Mercedes and the others. On the ever discussed topic of idrive, I think the test nailed it- its too much in your face.

While I haven't read the R&T article yet, I must say I concur generally with their assessment. And I agree with your conclusion, ME!

It hurts me, as a new BMW purchaser since my E36 in 1992, that I don't burn for any new model in the lineup. Even tho' I hold the #1 spot on my dealer's E60 M5 list, I'm still torn as to whether or not I'll pull the trigger (for my own consumption, that is!).

They have been holding the party line in a pretty steadfast manner, but I wonder what the long-term ramifications are. I hear Bangle's refrain that "change must hurt" (I'm paraphrasing, of course), but I also recall BMW bragging about it's unsurpassed customer loyalty.

Remember that "How Many BMWs Have You Owned?" thread?! I wonder how many multi-Bimmer owners are repulsed by the E65 + E60 options....

-Dave

Teutonaddict · 3rd May 2004, 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSBM5

I realize I must be an old fart now at 45, and that being a serious car enthusiast, 24-year member of BMWCCA, rampant BMW fanatic, etc, apparently disqualifies me for BMW's "new" market approach. The 996TT looks awfully interesting these days

Less so of an old fart (38), and only a 12-year BMW CCA'er, but just as disillusioned. What a shame. I'm considering the alternatives, and I've only driven a manual-transmission Bimmer for the last twelve years...

Even my wife, a self-professed NON-car nut, thinks they're all ugly:
E65: "Hate it! Why'd they screw up the Sevens?" (She drives an Imola E38)
E60: "You're not getting one of THOSE, are you?!"
new 6er: "Looks like a Toyota Solara--but still better than the Sevens and Fives!"

CSBM5 · 3rd May 2004, 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teutonaddict

(She drives an Imola E38)

That car is simply beautiful in Imola with the shadowline trim and sport package

Last summer we looked for one for my wife but could not find a decent one on the market and ended up buying the new '04 V70R since she likes the carrying capacity...at least we got it in red I guess. 300hp, Haldex AWD, 4C active suspension, big Brembo brakes -- you would think it would be a no-brainer awesome car...Volvo somewhat missed the mark on implementation however as it is rough around many edges, so to speak...sigh.

I sure wish BMW hadn't screwed up the new 7 as my imagination runs away with what could have been on a true E38 successor with the sport package.

blue max · 3rd May 2004, 19:57

Jerry,

Apparently the buying public agrees. U.S. 5 series sales are down 4% for April, 7 series (-8%) and the Z4 (-25%).

The only cars with decent numbers are the 6 series and the X3, and that's because there are no comparable models from a year ago.

Stay tuned.

Gustav · 3rd May 2004, 20:04

The 7-series is not selling well in Europe and USA for a fact. It sells far better in Asia so the total 7-series sales does not look as bad. When will BMW agree on that the 7-series was a big mistake and very poorely communicated to their core users and enthusiasts.

Im happy that the 5-series is less pronounced than the 7-series but the i-drive leaves is an irritation moment. BMW claims i-drive is good since Audi and other competitors starts copying the concept. Well, their copying is much less advanced and thus better for the user with less clutter and information gathered.

Let's put our hope in the new M5

I will never like the design of the 7-series though.

Gustav · 3rd May 2004, 20:07

But Dr Panke said the 7 is embraced by Asians. 'It is embraced in a slightly less complete way in North America and it's still debated by a number of aficionados in Europe,' he added. 'But this is rooted in the different social mindset of Europeans, who prefer to blend in, or not stand out from the crowd.'

7-series sets new sales record

The M5 concept is the opposite to stand out: understatement. That is what was the first M5 trademark almost...

I think Designworks USA have done alot of changing of the BMW brand.

MAH · 3rd May 2004, 20:39

I for one will be holding on to my E39 M5 for some time. The replacement M5 may have 500hp, but it will not have the style of the former model. I realize all things change, but not necessarly all for the good.

No i-drive for me. Based on the current sales figures, I am not alone in this mindset.

Mark