Gustav

End of story...

OK, let's finish this unconstructive thread. Any more discussions regarding the S4 and other cars are welcome to do so in the "Similar cars" forum.

KKelly

Kelvin I have been coming to this board for two years. My little flare up over the Lexus board post was the first fight I had got in with anybody-ever. It was a simple disagreement on cars.

You said you were disappointed with the power. My thoughts pertain to that comment nothing else. Your car does the 1/4 mile in 13.2 seconds and you stated your are disappointed with the power.

BMW get flamed plenty on the Lexus board and those guys really have very little experience with cars other than their own.

Actually, if memory serves, you periodically post on this board about how some other car is as fast as an M5 or how M5 owners shouldn't be so cocky about their cars. In fact, I believe if I searched the archives I could give you examples.

I read English very well and I quote:

"This confirms my fear that my M5 isn't that fast after all."

"and frankly, I think the M5's power is disappointing"

Are you saying I don't have the right to disagree with those statements. It will cost you at least $8k, not including labor, to modify an S4 to the level of an M5. Your friend will never see 4.2 seconds to 60mph without bigger turbos, exhaust, etc. That is not a $600 chip upgrade. Go to Total Audi Performance website for confirmation.

Because I disagree with you does not mean I flamed you. If you post statements like that do you expect people to post, "Yeah, Kelvin, that's great, I agree with you wholeheartedly."

Roman

Chris, at Gustav's suggestion, I won't respond to your comments on the board, but you are more than wlecome to contact me via personal e-mail if you like. Let me know if you can access me that way.

By the way, when I said several, I meant about 5 or 6 engines in total. Which actually surprised me considering all the "wonderful" things I have heard about it. I will elaborate more in my e-mails.

It's really unfortunate that a lot of you feel you needed to bash the S4 the way you have without even taking the time to test drive it like Kelvin did. You're like a bunch of schoolyard bullies.

I know Kelvin relatively well now, and I KNOW that he will keep his word and provide you with a "test result" of his M5 versus his friends S4 under numerous conditions. For the sake of your fragile ego's I DO hope the S4 gets creamed/wasted/blown away, because I can just imagine the BS comments, whining, and excuses we will be hearing in order to justify the results SHOULD they happen to be NOT in the favor of the M5........the most unfortunate part I always expected to hear unbiased opinions from an otherwise intelligent crowd, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Sigh.....

KKelly

Roman, I sent you an email re our last disagreement--hope it smooths things over.

However, the numbers are what they are. You can go to TAPS website and check out their claims of power for each Stage of mods. It is clear that to get the S4 from its stock performance to 4.2 seconds to 60mph (if that's possible) would require the Stage III modifications. $8k and bye, bye warranty. This includes two new bigger turbos and cat removal.

Great car and I would like to have one. But, if Roman loses to a chipped S4 at any speed over 40mph he needs to go to a BMWCCA driving school. At worst, they would be dead even.

Roman

Kevin,
Got your e-mail, sent you one too.

I'm not too thrilled with TAP, to be honest with you fore reasons I'd rather not go into. So far, I have "interviewed" 5 tuners EXTENSIVELY, spending over an hour with each on the phone. I have to tell you that I was impressed with only one of them, which I won't reveal here as I don't want any legal issues arising out of my opinions. This one in particular indicated to me that they can raise the S4's HP rating safely to 307, with torque up to 375 ftlbs and they indicated to me the weaknesses and strengths of the S4's drive train. Now I honestly and logically can't believe that the 0-60 times will improve much more than by about 0.7 seconds, to about 4.8-4.9 seconds Car & Driver's road test of the S4 in the December 1999 edition was 5.5 0-60, the same edition as was the M5 test where they got 0-60 of 4.7 seconds), before anything to 4.2 will require additional modifications and other conditions and I agree with you Kevin entirely, which was why I spent so much time talking to some of these guys. There is that initial point where you can get a significant improvement and then after that for any incremental improvement you have to do significant modifications. That's the case with the S4, who's stock boost pressure is a mere 7 psi. A basic increase goes to 14.5-7 psi which is 1 bar about, and is enough to launch the car at about 4.9-5.0 0-60, at best. Anything after that requires additional work, like a free flowing exhaust system in order to prevent the turbo's from "backing up" amongst a few other changes.

And as far as the warranty issue is concerned, Audi is more adamant for some strange reason to pursue the warranty issue in Europe than it is here in the U.S. And even then, the consumer is liable for any damage that the reprograming causes to the car, and most "chips" are encrypted to prevent false readings during routine maintenance at the dealer. Some will even offer you a means to exchange the ECU everytime you take it in for work.

I don't think I would ever go the route of exchanging the turbo's and changing the exhaust because then you have to deal with a totally different animal and give up certain comforts. Besides, the fuel mileage sucks big time with the car so anything that would enable me to provide heavier pedal pressure is not exactly what I am looking for.

Michael

I don't see the point of all this inane bickering about how aftermarket modifications can create "M5-Killers". After all, if you want the fastest car on the road, you should be driving a top fuel dragster or something. Anyone with enough $$$ can replace cams, intake systems, pistons, exhaust, etc. and install a N2O tank if all that mattered was straight-line speed. If you want the highest quality, most luxurious, and fastest stock sport sedan manufactured today, then own and drive the M5. If you want a chimera of a car without a manufacturer's warranty, then be happy with that and flame on another messageboard. This adolescent testosterone-influenced gladiator match has gotten out of hand.

blue max

Michael you said it all!

There's no discounting the wisdom that comes with age and learning from your mistakes. Obviously some people have a lot of learning & growing up to do.

Roman

Michael,
Your ego just can't afford to have anyone come close to your M5. Beauty, luxury, and performance are all relative.

Ken,
You make the most sense.

Blue Max,
How many gold chains do you wear?

Ken,

Michael

Roman, as I recall, you were the one who couldn't afford to buy the M5. That is how my memory serves me when I review your post on the old messageboard.
Also, if you had the depth of understanding necessary to overcome your mindless banter, you would find that my post simply was a response to your flagrant rudeness to people who are enthusiasts for the M5. This is an M5 messageboard, remember. If you have something constructive to offer, so be it. Otherwise, take your flaming invectives to the Audi board, or some other internet toilet where it would be better appreciated.

Ken

Everyone should lighten up a bit. I actually enjoy these back-and-forth posts. No one, as best as I can tell, is being obnoxious, and it is fun banter. Let people have their opinions. We all do not have to agree with each other. Isn't that why there are so many different and exciting cars out there. I, for one, am very happy with my M5. But, I also know there are other cars out there that are making other people happy too. The M5 does not have to be the best car for all people in all situations. But, for me it gives me a huge grin every time I get behind the wheel.

Avus

To underline what Michael mentioned above I'll cite some text written by Roman on the previous Messageboard;

Glen,
I was somewhat in a similar position as yourself. I ordered the M5 (Silverstone/Silverstone interior), had been saving up for quite sometime and had the cash ready to take
delivery. I even saw the car, started her up, etc. But I had a difficult time parting with the cash, particularly after assessing the fact that I would have to pay in excess of $9,000
just for various ridiculous taxes. Plus, other things had entered my life (a lot happens in 2 years), so that made things a bit more complicated.

Money is a big issue for a lot of people. But owning something like the M5 is a dream come true as well.

I think it depends a lot on your priorities as well. The M5, for my driving style, skills, and need for speed and comfort, would have been perfect. I drive on average of 22,000
miles a year, all year round. Which means I needed something to get me through the winter as well. To have gotten snow tires for the M5 as well as new rims, for another couple
of thousand didn't seem to make sense for me, and, considering the severity of the winters in the Northeast, there was no guarantee it would be that much better. Plus, I couldn't
see myself driving the beauty in the salt-infested roads throughout the winter. I also couldn't see myself getting into an SUV. No thrill.

So I chose the S4. While what a lot of what has been said about the car is true here, the performance is nonetheless impressive. I can't and won't compare it to the M5. Totally
different. But considering what I had gone through recently in Vermont on a ski trip with a friend in his A6, it solidified my choice. It is a small car, but it is nonetheless
comfortable. If you're a big guy, say over 6'0", and generally very big all around, I would be careful or even hesitant towards purchasing the car. The AWD system is sweet. The
turbo is very effective in delivering the power and I am someone who believes in only normally aspirated engines.

If you want sheer power, go for the Corvette, but you can rest assured you will be limited as to how often you can use the car. The upcoming M3 is supposed to be a monster as
well and will give you sheer performance all the way. But my M3 friends all curse their cars in wet weather as well as in the winter. Either way, you need to consider how often
you will use the car, for what purposes, and how much you're willing to pay. How much are you willing to pay to go fast?

Someone also mentioned to stay away from the tricked out cars. Very true. Unless you are one of the top ten wealthy men in the world, don't do it and or unless you have several
other cars that you can use. Very high maintenance. I think Kelvin brought out some very interesting pro's and con's (thanks for thinking the S4 styling is bland, Kelvin) of all the
cars. That's a good starting point. Not everyone can have an M5, but that's ok.

Good luck on your choice.

Roman

and another nice one;



You CAN'T compare big blocks to small blocks, realistically OR dynamically. You CAN'T compare the M5 to an S4, or a Corvette to an F1. I think those road tests of the E55
versus the M5 are for enthusiasts who may be interested in virtues of both cars. I think even Car & Driver said that the M5 has significant understeer while the E55 tracks
smoothly? I am sure most of you have read the article.

to finish it (or Roman) off;



Yeh, the M5 is an awesome vehicle. I almost got one myself. But be realistic and don't compare it to other makes or say its the best in the world, because best will always be
relative.

and one more



"Thank you, Raymond. I think I made a prety good choice myself, however, that does not detract from the fact that I am VERY pro BMW as most others on the MB here are. I
hope to be able to run neck and neck with an M5'er somewhere along the way, even though I know I won't be able to hold on for long"

Kelvin

Avus,

That was not very nice of you to cut and paste Roman's previous messages.

Michael,

Whether Roman can afford the M5 or not, it's questionable. Roman prefers to pay for his car in cash, unlike many others who lease or take a loan.

As of now, I just can't help but wonder why we cannot compare cars without someone getting personal or offensive. Maybe some of you feel offended when someone states the M5's weaknesses.

raymondw

What is the point Avus is trying to make?

Roman allways is and has been very clear and open on his thoughts. I think everybody should respect this.

The most of us have to work very hard for the sheer luxury to drive a car like the M5, S4 or E55. I consider this as a reward for my dedication to my hard work.

Roman is not the only one who pays cash for his car. And when you have to part with a large sum of cash you have in your hand, some thoughts go through your mind. I know since I speak from experience.

Creative financing does not come up in my mind. I want to drive what I can pay and where I have saved for. Paying more than US$1500 every month for a loan with more than 5 years of length just for a car. That is not my idea. Instead of this I save and invest.

For me it is a fact that a lot of nice cars are build. The Audi S4 is one of them. And choosing and deciding for a particular car depends on a lot of considerations.

I also agree with Roman that all car makes have their problems with quality or functionality. Some of us are not the greatest frien of the E39 ///M5. Some others cannot imagine driving an AMG since it only has an automatic gearbox. Some others hate VAG for it's platform strategy. Others simply don't want to drive a Volvo or Saab.

But when we have a small horizon, narrowly dedicated to one or two brands, we don't see the qualities of other cars. I have driven many Audi's including the S2, RS2, S3, S4 (old and new) and TT quattro and I have to admit that these are very nice cars with good allround qualities. The S2 which we also own one of is a very reliable fast car, capable of outrunning an E430 or 540i. The five cylinder 20v engine is a mervelous piece of technique and reliable. Allthough not as refined as my M5, I could easily live with it as a daily driver. Before deciding for my current M5 I have considered the following cars.

1: Audi RS2 (which I allmost bought in 1998)
2: MB 500E (which was for sale at a local MB garage in early 1999 for about US$35000)
3: BMW E36 ///M3 (to small for me).
4: BMW Alpina B10 biturbo (E34).

All of these are very good cars with which I could easily live with. The 500E fell of due to it's old-man's character and I am "only" 28 so it was not a logical choise. But nevertheless, a good car.

I want to end by saying that I respect Roman's decision for not buying the M5. He choose the S4 instead, I agree with him that the S4 is a very good choise.

With best regards,

Raymond Woertman