Today's pet peeve: unreasonable expectations - The Unofficial BMW M5 Messageboard (m5board.com)

ELEVENS · 15th January 2004, 20:16

[RANT]
Is it just me, or does this board have more that it's share of users who have unreasonable expectations?

Is it reasonable to expect your dealer to "cover" the cost of things they have absolutely no control or responsibility over, double oil changes, expectations for out-of-warranty repairs, repairs resulting from non-BMW parts and/or abuse and/or neglect, etc. Buy an aftermarket exhaust then complain that it makes more noise than stock exhaust? Buy a short shifter then complain that the reduced mechanical advantage makes it shift harder? Should the seller pay for UPS' mistake for delivering your package to the neighbors house?

Is it just me? Maybe I'm too much of a push-over? Did I fail to get the memo that states noone is responsible for anything anymore - it's always someone else's fault?
[/RANT]

Confession: I'm a little bored today, just stirring things up teeheehee

BmwNut · 15th January 2004, 21:05

Sometimes it gets a little strong, but it's really not that bad IMO. The clutch thing is a 50/50 issue for me, but the Vanos and MAFS are a 100% BMW problem. Hard use will wear things out, and although I understand that the car was made to be the best, even the best has mechanical limits. People buy Lotus Esprits for some of the best mid engine handling in the world, but they break too, and more easily than the M5. But most forums there complain, but try to pass it off as the car "is so close to a race car that reliablity sacrifices had to be made for performance reasons." BMW builds one awsome car, which is very durable, but some wear and tear/ breakage needs to be covered by the owner. I dont think this is a problem on this board, but it applies to almost every conversation I have overheard when getting my 528 serviced.

Philip · 16th January 2004, 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by BmwNut

The clutch thing is a 50/50 issue for me, but the Vanos and MAFS are a 100% BMW problem.

Some of the MAFS problems I hear about are from guys with CAI kits that use oiled filters. Probably their fault.

BmwNut · 16th January 2004, 03:24

Quote:

Some of the MAFS problems I hear about are from guys with CAI kits that use oiled filters. Probably their fault.

Agreed that CAI with different filters exaggerated this problem. At least how I understand it was that even with the stock airboxes that the MAFS get filthy and ruin performance. Still a BMW sourced problem, but I'm sure many an SA has blamed the CAI's for it, even when they know bone stock cars have those problems.

ELEVENS · 16th January 2004, 04:07

It would be nice if the clutch would last 50,000 miles AND hold up to several trips to the drag strip. But we get to choose one, but not both. And the MAFs seem to be a common complaint as well, often times from K&N filter uses. Don't they have an initial "burn off" feature that heats up the wire like the GM cars have?

I think maybe what ends up happening in many of the "nasty old SA" stories is that the SA gets so accustomed to the general public trying to pull the wool over their eyes that they become conditioned and over react as a defensive mechanism

BmwNut · 16th January 2004, 04:15

I agree that many SA's are a little jaded, at least some of the ones that I dealt with when I had my E39. Most VW's SA's I currently deal with are pretty good, so I wonder what the difference is. Actually, I have had nothing but great experiances with VW SA's, so maybe the BMW guys are tired of the annoyances that go along with servicing cars that are commonly viewed as a status symbol and nothing else.
I do agree with the comment on the MAFS. You would think with an engine that complex that the MAFS could self clean, but hey, you dont always have everything you want.

de Witt · 16th January 2004, 19:27

The MAFS issue is one generated by the owners. The problem is common with any BMW with the MAF induction system. The initial burn-off does work, but the problem with that is when it goes in to the burn off with oil residue on the wire. This could cause mis-calibration problems, which will reduce performance.

With the stock filters and stock airbox, your MAF wire will get dirty after 100k miles. Keeping the filters clean is mandatory for any car, and the M5 is not exempt from this. No it is not BMWs fault. If you run a different air box and filter, and the MAF wire is dirty at an early stage, that is your problem.

There is no difference between SAs...they are all trying to keep costs down while trying to provide the expected service.There are bad apples, but you think its a BMW-only problem? Hardly. I would expect there to be more VW SAs that are jerks because there are more VW dealerships. The funny thing is the $95-100//hr labor rate, but that is business.

The "BMW guys" are fading away. The BMW enthusiast that understands their BMW is quite a rare breed. Most like to ***** and moan about how the SA wont do "this or that." Get over it and get angry about something that really means something, not about your SA.

Elevens, are you familiar with the Woodward Dream Cruise? I saw one LeMans Blue M5 at the 2003....Ill be there next year.

BmwNut · 16th January 2004, 21:04

I dont think the SA comments I made are limited between VW and BMW only. I just gave a statement based on what I personally have experianced between the two companies. I am sure that there are rude VW SA's, and BMW SA's that are up for sainthood. This is again just my personal experiance with servicing an E39 for 45k miles and my Jetta for 15k miles. Maybe the more I service my Jetta the more "bad apple" SA's Ill run into, or maybe not.
I guess I'm confused on the MAF issue then. As I have understood it a good percentage of E39 M5 owners have had their MAFS replaced, either in or out of warranty. As I understand those with different intakes seem to need to do this sooner. But what I got from the board is that it happens rather quickly on the M5. Do what I did, do a search for MAF problems, and you will see that a lot of complaints are on fairly low mileage cars with stock intakes. That to me, is a somewhat poor design.

Aussie2U · 16th January 2004, 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by ELEVENS

Did I fail to get the memo that states noone is responsible for anything anymore - it's always someone else's fault?

I hear ya. You must have been in Europe & me in Australia when that memo went out. How can anyone accept responsibility anyway when the first line on our insurance cards says "In case of accident - DO NOT ADMIT FAULT!".

Mspeeding · 17th January 2004, 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by BmwNut

But most forums there complain, but try to pass it off as the car "is so close to a race car that reliablity sacrifices had to be made for performance reasons."

It's ironic that you say this. Yesterday the BMWNA rep took exactly this stance. He told me "the car is practically a racing car (his term not mine, this is a direct quote) so what do you expect?"

Needless to say that's quite a bit different than the sales pitch I got when I bought the car. If BMW were honest about it, they'd explain to you before you made your purchase, that the performance of the car stretches the limits of mechanical reliability in some areas, in particular the clutch. It is possible that you will have to buy a new clutch fairly often and it will cost you about $2000 a pop.

But I doubt anyone heard anything even remotely like this from BMW. Quite the opposite, the sales pitch was about their reliability, the quality of their service, the performance of the car, and the wonderful 50K warranty and scheduled service. I need point no further than the BMW films promotion of their cars. They promote the M5 as one hard-driving bad-a** vehicle.

One could argue "Buyer beware" or that it is reasonable to replace a clutch at 20K miles. But as to the first point, this is BMW -- not Joe's used car lot off a back alley. And as for the second point, I'm guessing many of us who drive these cars are like me and have owned lots of powerful standard transmission cars, or even have some racing backgrounds (mine is D-production Spridgets, to Rabbit GTI Showroom Stock to a 500hp Viper).

If you're an inexperianced or sloppy driver, yeah you can expect your clutch to fail. But if you know what you're doing and have not abused the car, who among us would have expected a BMW clutch to fail so quickly? Certainly my M5 is a hell of a lot better engineered car than that Viper (although I must say, my 1275 cc Spridget is also one uniquely engineered vehicle!).