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Old 8th September 2003, 23:06   #1
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Exclamation How many of you guys, read GUSTAV's article on his DINAN visit/tour............

I thought it was interesting to say the least, so I wanted to get your feedback (if any) on this article.

START OF ARTICLE:
After a weekend in SF we had a meeting with Dinan at their Morgan Hil headquarters. We were greeted by their very knowledgable salesman Chris who gladly showed us around the facilities. We were lucky to meet up with the founder himself, Steve Dinan who drove his personal M5 with the S2 package, the red one. We also met up with member beetlem5 aka Bailey, his friend and his LeMans blue M5.

Our visit started with a tour of a white race E36 M3 US-version with a Vortech supercharger that greets us in the lobby. We discussed some reliability issues regarding superchargers and we learned that some parts as bearings are critical to the longevity of the supercharger. Since the supercharger spins with around 40-50 000 rpm the brand and quality of the bearings are very important. The quality have varied since the manufacturer uses different bearings at different times. I also noticed the full carbon doors on the E36 which looked very interesting but were too costly for commercial production.

Then we saw a 5-series E34 with a 540i engine with a Garrett T04 turbocharger. This was the Dinan 540i Turbo World Challenge and had around 650 HP. Chris mentioned that Dinan said they quit racing since the rules changed alot. They put $5000 on the suspension setup only to have it illegal next week. After that they were fed up with racing in that class.

We then moved on to look at an M3 E46 that got the S2 package. Along that there were two red Mini Cooper S that Dinan were developing products for. They also worked on a Z4. I told them how much I liked the Hartge Z4 5,0 and they seemed to understand why that was the case. We got the opportunity to look close on the Dinan exhausts that uses uses stainless steel inside out. But for some exhaust with weird bends or otherwise very difficult to produce Dinan buys the OEM-exhaust and cut them open and make the needed modifications. In alot of parts (such as clips etc.) Dinan uses the BMW OEM parts since BMW continiously updates the parts and the parts develop over time during the product cycle. By using BMW-parts Dinan takes advantage of BMW product knowledge.



He also told us Dinan had no plans for a supercharger for the 330i since those people who would buy those would rather have an M3 which makes sense.

Then we were shown the Dinan headers for the M5. The reason because their $7999 price is: their complex shape that requires alot of welding work, enirely made of stainless steel, expensive CNC-milled adaptors are made to connect from the squarish block to the round header with a free flow and the headers uses a 4-2-1 design and the flow combiners are complex to make. Finally, alot of research was done to find out the optimal length of the headers. The length was tweaked to tkae advantage of the secondary wave of back pressure that is created when gas goes from 4 to 2 and then to 1 the secondary wave of back pressure arrives exactly back into the block so it acts as a vacuum and thus increases the amount of air being drawn in. The reason why BMW did not do this desgin oon their own headers was according to Dinan because of it would be too expensive and time consuming to manufacture. BMW have constarins like they have to design the vehicle for a large market and also have to consider manufacturability. The headers will increase the peak horsepower gain from 6500 rpm to redline with 28 HP.

After we went on to the dyno room where Dinan had installed a new Dynapac dyno from New Zealand. This connects the directly to the wheel hub so you're eliminating the tyreslip. We spent alot of time speaking about dynos and by this time Steve Dinan himself came and joined us. Before we only were with the our initial contact Chris. Steve Dinan is a very positive person who really takes prides in his products and explained all the variables a dyno measurement can have. Steve showed us a graph that hade 4 different rund of an E39 M5. One simple thing such an opened hood rendered around 5-10 HP difference because of heat and how the engines electonice cut the power when it feels its overheated. He explained the problems with that you never can replicate the air movement of a normal highspeed run. Since the engine feels liek its too hot on a dyno it will give the engine more fuel to cool it down which wil lresult it lower power and hte car running too rich of fuel in the fuel/air ratio. In fact there was a huge fan in the dyno room but that couldn't replicate true conditions according to Dinan. I asked why just you don't do a "before tuning" and "after tuning" dyno run and Steve explained that there were so many variables you cannot replicate to have the same at those two runs. He said all the cars fluids has to be the same temperature since a fluid gets more "fluid" (increased viscousity) at higher temperatures and that affects the power alot. He also explained to me the great lengths he went to in the earlier years to try to do perfect dyno test, involving stroboscobe to see if the tyre was slipping against the rolls of the dyno and so on. Also the M5 engine management program interfears when it feels its to hot and cuts the power.

So that is also why you might see some big increases sometimes because at the particulat testing moment the M5 did not cut the power since the sensors weren't as hot. Steve Dinan are writing some white papers on the dyno variations and the car for these papers and dyno runs will be an E39 M5. It will be published an article about this in the US-magazine Car and Driver this fall. It actually started out with Car and Driver asked Dinan which dyno to buy and Steve told about his expeiences with dynos. So expect a white paper in the future of the dyno and the M5.

After the dyno room we weht into a conference room and he discussed why the M3 with the full Dinan kit (the S2 M3) only had one pair of the four exhuast pipes working. It was because more power. On the V8 in the M5 it's logical to have a a pair ofexhaust on either side but on the straight-six of the M3 it does not make sense. Regarding the M5 Dinan had a thought of changing the cams but came to the conclusion that it would be a too big risk letting the dealers do the conversion. They decided not to have products that involves dissassemply of the engine. I asked about what Steve Dinan thought about the Nowack M5 that changes the camshafts and the overall power of the Nowack N500 under ideal circumstances. Steve gave them credits for changing the camshafts and other itnernal work. He then showed us a formula he always uses as a preliminary tool to see what theoretically is feasible for naturally aspirated engines:

(Displacement (in cubic inches) * max rpm * 190 PSI ) / 793,000

Thus for a M5 the formula is:


( 301.52 cubic inces * 7000 * 190 ) / 793000 = 505 HP

Which is pretty close to what the tuner Nowack states. And with a 7780 rpm redline that the nowack N530S package has its 562 HP. And Nowack claims 520 HP. Notice that that is the theoretical limit and as Dinan said doesn't tell you how you acheive it only that it is achievable... I guess you shouldn't put too much beleif into that formula, but it's was a interesting one. You can change the air pressure to reflect if you have a supercharger or turbo which you of course can have even more power. But as stated, only in theory.



After alot of talk I was excited to see what the S2 package for the M5 did to the performance. Steve claimed they had sold over 120 kits for the M5. The parts for the S2 costs $26 456 and after labour it totals around $35 000 and adds 70 HP to the M5. This includes:

Software
Cold air intake
High flow throttle bodies, velocity stacks and air flow meters
Dinan exhaust
Dinan headers
Lightweight flywheel
3,45 differential
Front strut tower brace
Rear shock tower brace
Dinan floor mats
Dinan badge on trunk
Numbered S2 badge
Dinan wheels
So basically this package increases the engines breathing capability, as well as more efficient exhaust. Also a lighter flywheel. Also very critical to the power-result was the reporgramming of the software. Finally a shorter final drive. Since this final drive is coupled with a higher rev-limiter the shift points are nearly identical to the standard M5 up to around 130 mph. But it goes to the redline in 5th and 6th gear with the differential. Of course it's derestricted too. At 7300 rpm at 6th gear the top speed is 191 mph (306 km/h). Interestinlgy enough this package does not include better brakes.

To our luck we had a 2001 LeMans Blue M5 with us completely standars except a Dinan exhaust and also a DV-camera. So I asked Dinan if we could take a spin and do a comparison, setting aside all variables of dyno and heat problems. Sure, but he wanted to drive. That was OK with me as long as I could witness it!

So off we go, it is Steve driving the Imola Red M5 with the DINAN license palte that been featured in many magazines vs. a almost completely standard 2001 M5. On our way to the straight I asked Steve what his favourite BMW was and it was the M3 E46 that is a more drivers car than the M5. He tells me he "everything with an engine" except boats. He flies airplanes too. We decided to do the race with inspiration from the Saudi M5 videos that was featured on the The BMW M5 Messageboard lately. You are each in one lane and then one car honks, then the other car honks as a confirmation that it's good-to-go and then the first car honks again and then the race is on after the third honk on the horn. We did two runs and we were three in the S2 M5 and they were two in the LeMans Blue M5. Rolling start from first gear and then floor it to say 130-135 mph. We do that twice and we each stay in each others lane. Both of the times the S2 clearly pulls away, most noticably in the lower gears. The shift points are almost identical at lower speeds since both cars hit the rev limitet at 1st gear since the rev-limiter lags on the M5. At over 120 mph there must be at least 5+ carlenghts between us. This can be watched from the videos that will be on the site.

The questions is how much the rear differential contributes to the difference and how much the rest of the engine package contibutes. My hunch is that a raised rev-limiter and a 3,45 differential would do some significant changes. but of course not as good asa complete S2 package.

The spontaneous race was very fun and I think Steve enjoyed it as well, especially considering the outcome. I wanted to do some runs more but Steve thought we had proven them point which I beleive he was right with. I'll say there is no better way to benchmark a car than a side-by-side comparison in each lane at high speeds. However you have considerations as which make of tyre since some are more sticky than others etc. butin reality it's the side by side comparicon that counts.
END OF ARTICLE.

Go here for pics and article:

http://www.m5board.com/articles/usa2003/usa.html

PS: I've been trying to reach my contact guy at DINAN, via telephone and E-mail messages. I try to reach this person from time to time, simply to get an update on DINAN's group buy situation. My contact guy however NEVER gets back to me. Honestly, Im stumped!!! I don't want to reach out to Steve D. himself, since this would be ackward to say the least. I only know what little I read from GUSTAV's message about the GB being postponed until the late Fall Season. It would be nice if I could get a more detailed update from my Dinan contact guy, so I could respond to numerous PMs and E-mails I have received from members of this board. ANY SUGGESTIONS???
I explained this to my contact guy at Dinan, thinking he'd understand my position and reach out to me, which would be the curtious thing to do. No such luck guys. Thats why Im open to your ideas and or suggestions on how to handle/approach this matter.
Thanks.
Robert


Last edited by Gustav; 9th September 2003 at 11:43.
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Old 8th September 2003, 23:31   #2
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Ive e-mailed Dinan and told them the article is online. We'll see what they say.
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Old 8th September 2003, 23:37   #3
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read it and even posted a reply
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Old 8th September 2003, 23:44   #4
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Hey Rob...............

Your comment of:
"read it and even posted a reply"

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Was that statement for me or for Gustav? If it was ment for me, I didn't understand your comment. Please explain or rephrase, okay.
Thanks Pal.
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PS YOUR PM BOX IS FULL !

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Old 9th September 2003, 00:47   #5
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S2 M5

Nice visit report on Dinan Gustav.

I just want to point out that the Dinan S2 (as sold at the price you quoted) includes Dinan's Stage II suspension and does NOT come with the lightweight wheels. The wheels are extra.

Jeff
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Old 9th September 2003, 02:01   #6
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Read and enjoyed it!!

Good job Gustav!

-Travis
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Old 9th September 2003, 07:35   #7
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Dinan sucks. Their response to your GB request shows how much they really care about you guys as customers...

Tell you guys what... I just thought of an idea. If you guys are interested in those $8K headers, I will get my fabricator to design and fabricate a set of equal length stainless headers in a 4-2-1 design AND 2-piece like the Hamann so they are easier to install. We even have a flow bench machine and access to a dyno. My car can be the test mule to make sure it makes power. I will charge you guys half of what Dinan wants.

Either that, or go get some headers from RennSport or EvoSport.

What do you think of THAT? I am sick and tired of all this overpriced garbage that has no "bang" for your buck.

Friends don't let friends do Dinan.
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Last edited by Hamann7; 9th September 2003 at 07:38.
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Old 9th September 2003, 07:46   #8
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Hamman7- But this is not the case for their wheels and suspension.

-Travis
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Old 9th September 2003, 08:41   #9
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Am I the only one that thinks that Gustav should have been able to give the Dinan S2 a test drive?!
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Old 9th September 2003, 08:44   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by M5Kid
Hamman7- But this is not the case for their wheels and suspension.

-Travis
Everyone knows that the ACS DFC is far better than Dinan Stage 3. If you are the kind of consumer that can pay Dinan prices, why not just buy the best one?

Wheels? There are so many choices when it comes to those. Dinan charges a lot for a 1-piece forged wheel. My friend is forging a set of wheels that will be lighter and cheaper than the Fikses, and it looks somewhat similar to the HRE 841. You might see it on an M5 soon.

But I LOVE my Work Wheels from Japan.
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