Stan

I was just re-reading Autocar's Road Test Yearbook for 2000, which claims that the Z8 is outhandled by the M5:

"The big let down is the chassis, which not only fails to handle as well as as two-seat sports cars should, it doesn't even handle as well as an M5"

I have never driven a Z8, and I only picked up my 2000 M5 last Saturday (Carbon black/Black nappa). I would be very interested to hear a Z8/M5 comparision. It seems that the best bit of the Z8 is the engine, which of course comes from the M5.

I will post the rest of the (brief) Autocar article if people are interested.

I would add my thanks to everyone on this board for the high quality of discussion here, from which I have learnt a lot and which was a very positive influence in my decision to buy an M5.

BMW take note!

Danish

I know someone who owns both the Z8 and the M5, and his findings are totally in line with what this magazine writes. It is probably the body flex on the Z8 that destroys the handling. In a German auto magazine, the Z8 lost a comparison test to a Corvette C5 Convertible on the handling.

Michael


[This message has been edited by B8 Guru (edited 06 February 2001).]

DrKevM5

Stop Stan, you're making us blush!!!

KnightRider

when a z8 came out and the pricing was anounced, i thought that the car wasnt worth its' price.

however after that, seeing different pictures and reading more about the car, ive come to appreciate it a lot more than in the beginning.

in my humble opinion i dont consider it to be a 'two seater sportscar' just like i dont consider an m5 to be a sportscar either, so i find completely irrelevant how well both of these cars perform on the racetrack.

i love m5's and z8's interiors, they are masterpieces in their respective classes. i like their looks, power, brakes in everyday use and cornering on common roads. i like a lot of things about these cars, but i dont believe in their virtues as sportscars.
my father who owns an m5 goes even further and calls an m5 "a powerful and comfortable sports sedan, great for a family use". say, something like a 750i, but with manual box and smaller and less official.

as for the sportscars...porsche 911 gt3 is a sportscar, lotus elise is a sportscar, mitsubishi lancer evo6 is a sportscar, f360 is a sportscar, etc, but in no way an m5 or z8 are.



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SL

alpywhite

...and yet the M Roadster is still the best handling car I've ever owned...

daniel

I somewhat agree with our friend from Spain. But to futher the discussion, there used to be an implicit (in my mind) understanding that somehow a "sports car" would perform better than something which was not a "sports car." I think that this has changed, and signifcantly.

I also believe that "handling" is the most difficult comparison. There are objective tests to tell us how well a car gets through a slalom or around a skid pad; but to many people it is just as important to know how the car feels in your hands... how well you can feel the road, how well the car settles into a corner, how well the car handles under braking.

Whether I like the Z8 makes no difference, but BMW designed it to appeal to a market segment who apparently thinks its great... and whether it handles better or is faster than this car or that (or the M5), and how it compares to cars which cost less, can only be judged by the guy who has the $$$ to spend.

Just my opinion, though. Dan

KnightRider

alpy, are you in a market for a new m roadster? it will be such a better car with new m3's engine as opposed to 240 hp one that was under the bonnet before.

in my eyes z8 is something what an aston martin db7 volante should have been like, instead of using ford's parts bin.
i believe it carries the spirit of open top british cars.

i would love to have a z8 and an m roadster, which i drive occasionally, reminds me so much of a ride that one lady gave me in her 1964 austin healey mk3 years back in the college in the uk, when we had a charity rally. that car was so...so alive and full of character, so loud, so beautiful, painted white bottom and light blue top part of body. i think it had straight 6 with 3.0 liters.

who would be considering a z8 and c5 convertible at the same time as options anyway??? c'mon...

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SL

[This message has been edited by KnightRider (edited 06 February 2001).]

[This message has been edited by KnightRider (edited 06 February 2001).]

MEnthusiast

Anyone who owns any of these cars is extremely fortunate. I hope you realize that I understand just how fortunate I am to be able to drive either of these fantastic automobiles. I am sharing my experiences that I wrote on a different BMW board a few months ago to provide a comparison.

Before I begin my quote- I have to say this- there is absolutely no body flex on the Z8. I have also some experience with the M Roadster, and there is some on that. The Z8s handling, in my opinion is better than the M5 in terms of feel; but in terms of limits, the M5 sticks to the road better. The reason is probably a more forgiving suspension plus a longer wheelbase.

So heres what I wrote (Im making a few edits as I re-read it):

The big question- how does it handle compared to the M5? Who wins? The answer is: it depends.

"Handling" is such a subjective word. For me it is more complicated than just sticking to the road. While the g-force a car can pull is important to me, its not all of it.

If youre looking for which car will stick to the road better, its the M5.

The Z8, due to its shorter wheelbase, doesnt like turns that have expansion joints. the car doesn’t become totally unglued, but it skips over them (so that the rear kind of slides out a little), while the M5 pretty much keeps on going.

In terms of steering, the Z8 is more communicative and accurate- the M5 almost feels numb by comparison. The Z8s steering feel is very close to E36 M3- maybe a little better, maybe a little worse- its hard for me to tell. This is likely due to the rack & pinion setup vs the recirculating ball on the M5. The steering feel is a little heavier than the M5 with sport mode activated, and much heavier than the M5 with sport mode off. The sport mode on the Z8 only affects the throttle, not the steering, as some people in the print media have errorenously reported (Autoweek).

The Z8's steering feel is more "linear". The M5's steering seems to exhibit a bit of a dead spot on center and also seems to be a little vague around this area. The sport mode helps with this though. Never the less the Z8s steering is just better.

on the downside, with the Z8s steering one also feels the tires tramlining more, whereas with the M5 this sensation is mostly absent.

The Z8 has much less body roll and almost no dive or squat. Going through a turn quickly in the M5 you can sense the mass of the car, while the Z8 has a more nimble feel- although its not a small car it feels as if it shrinks when you make quick turns.

The M5 rides much better over rough pavement and road conditions. But the Z8 is supposed to be more of a pure sports car. Both cars feel like bank vaults as far as chassis rigidity. The Z8's passenger seat rattles ever so slightly when one drives over bumpy roads, this is enough to be a little annoying though. The M5 has a few rattles (sunroof, rear deck) as well.

The shifter in the Z8 is essentially that of the m5, but the throws feel shorter and the shifter is much smoother. It has a great feel.

In terms of braking- The feel of the brakes in the Z8 is very crisp and powerful- while those in the M5 feel a little mushy. However, Ive had to make a panic stop in the M5 (~65-0 mph) and I can tell you the brakes work extremely well. I would expect the Z8 to do even better. For daily driving though, the Z8s brakes feel sharper.

On acceleration. The Z8 feels faster, and the exhaust note is more pronounced. The sound from 4500 RPM + is really something to enjoy- it almost becomes addictive. The M5 makes a nice exhaust note, but as many have noticed, its not quite as pronounced as an enthusiast would like. I think the M5 gives you the right amount of engine noise in the cabin and the same is true of the Z8. The Z8s normal throttle mode is a bit quicker than the sport mode in the M5. The sport mode on the Z8 is kind of like what a "hyper" sport button would provide on the M5. With less weight the ability of the engine to launch one from 0- whatever speed you desire is truly scarey. There seems to be no end to the torque. As the speed builds you expect it to run out of power- but it doesnt!

So that’s handling- my conclusion, the M5 might be capable of higher handling numbers, but Ill take the Z8 on feel.

On to driving experience- well, you’d expect a sedan and roadster to be different- and they are. The M5 is a truly refined sedan capable of mind-boggling performance for a 4,000 lb machine. This is the ultimate daily driver for an enthusiast.

The Z8 is fantastic luxury roadster also capable of really mind boggling performance. This is the ultimate "toy" for an enthusiast. It is capable as a daily driver, the ride is good enough for that- even on bumpy roads- but this car was designed for the weekends and summer time road trips in mind.

On the whole, the Z8 is a much more involving experience. As good as the M5 is, it makes the M5 feel a bit numb. It feels as if it out accelerates the M5 by a considerable amount- even though we all know this is not true. It’s just that you’re closer to the action.

Whereas the M5 offers you the ultimate mix of sportiness and refinement, with the Z8 the sensation is of just you, the wind, and the open road. Nothing in front of you except the long hood- it takes a couple of minutes to get used to this, but once you do- you don’t want to let it go.

Also, the gauges in the middle is something that’s very easy to get used to and IMHO is not awkward at all. It’s a little bizarre the first time you look out and there’s no gauge cluster in your view.

The first time I drove the Z8, I was looking for the consumption data and other data that Ive seen in every BMW. Many of those read outs are not there! I had gotten so acoustomed to knowing my gas mileage, this was actually a little troubling.

Thats when I realized this car isn’t about gauges or data, it’s about feel. It gives the emotional feel of what like what one would expect a classic roadster to feel like, but with modern performance and all the modern conveniences (ABS,etc)- there’s even somewhat of a cup holder (but I think its an afterthought for us Yankees).

The Z8 is unlike anything Ive ever experienced, and Ive driven a Ferrari F40 (ok- it was a very short drive- but I did get to drive it!). I had recently driven the new 360 hardtop. I liked it very much! However, for me they are too flashy- now thats a personal preference thing so Im not knocking Ferrari because parts fell out or something like that.

The Z8 is a very user friendly "supercar". and it would make anyone who enjoys driving very happy.

If I had to pick one for a daily driver, the M5 wins easily. If I had to pick one as a weekend fun car, the Z8 wins easily.


ME


[This message has been edited by MEnthusiast (edited 07 February 2001).]

greg

M - really nice article. You gave me a good feel for the Z8. I can add that I was on track in my Porsche at Laguna yesterday and today and had the chance to drive around behind both M5's and a Z8. Our own Robert A with the Le Mans Blue E39 was GETTING IT ON - he did great. I was really impressed at how well the M5 did corner - from my own experiences it doesn't always feel like it from the inside - but it does take a set and it corners well. I can't say too much about the Z8 - and I don't know much about the driver - but it was certainly doing well. And listening to it go by on the front straight - what a treat. It really does have a much "badder" tone than the M5, and significantly louder.

Cheers -

alpywhite

Knight, I had a 99 Imola Red, and am eagerly awaiting the newer iteration of the M Roadster.

The little car was SO nimble and well sorted; and its lateral transition / turn-in was lightning. The car's slighter mass did a great job of accentuating the torque of the 3.2 and those brakes.

One evening on a twisty road up to a local ski resort (Whistler) I snapped the wheel to do a quick lane change. The car got over so fast, my girlfriend and I just looked at each other, wide-eyed.

Whenever I shoehorned myself into my MZ3, I felt like I was throwing around a beautiful little slot car.

You could tell the car would be even tighter with a hardtop, but I hear what ME has to say about Big Brother and can confirm that an open-top BMW roadster of any ilk pays very little structurally for its looks / fun.

Alps

[This message has been edited by alpywhite (edited 07 February 2001).]

Erik

My only knowledge from the M5 is from the streets and my only knowledge from the Z8 is from the track as a passanger so I am not in a possition to discuss in detalil the feelings in the car, but...
The M5 is heavy and have a tendency to understeer in low speed corners, the Z8 is much more direct and goes more towards oversteer in the same corner. I could not notice any irritating body flex on my few laps as I have noticed in other convertibles.
If the definition of handling is, going from one point to another, conected with turns bumps and straights its no question that the Z8 will outrun an M5. That has been proven by the most serious German Auto mag. Sport auto.
( test made by same driver and condition)
The Z8 was 6 sec faster than the M5.(8,28 vs 8,22 on the Nurdburg ring)
This off course also has to do with the fact that the Z8 is a faster car.
If the definition of handling is the speed it can carry around a curve the M5 could be equal or better.
Looking at the test that was made by Sport auto on Nurdburg ring I see that in some curves the M5 was faster and on others the Z8 was faster.
The Z8 was never made to beat the 360 Modena or its like, nor was the M5 made to be a sportscar, but given the right driver it can scare the **** of any of them anytime....
They are quite simply fantastic cars in its own way....
This cars are much much more than just fast cars, if you wanted a BMW that was fast on a track you should buy an AC Schnitzer M Coupe that would drive cirkles around an M5 and the Z8 on a track. ( well.... almost )