ot: e46 smg m3 vs. 996 c2 for track and street? - BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums

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Old 23rd August 2002, 02:02   #1
Paul S
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ot: e46 smg m3 vs. 996 c2 for track and street?

i believe the 996 c2 is a little slower 0-60, but which is faster on the track in the hands of a semi-capable driver? which would be your choice and why?
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Old 23rd August 2002, 08:57   #2
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Re: ot: e46 smg m3 vs. 996 c2 for track and street?

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Originally posted by germansedanfan
i believe the 996 c2 is a little slower 0-60, but which is faster on the track in the hands of a semi-capable driver? which would be your choice and why?

Dont do it Paul.... dont listen to JF... Think of her as the dark side.

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Old 23rd August 2002, 09:12   #3
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Well, it's not really apples to apples

The 911 is an awesome sports car, but remember, it's a two seater, has virtually no trunk, costs a fortune to maintain and is what...$30,000 more.

In terms of the comparison, the 2002 C2 now has 320 hp, so it is close to the M3 in power and I believe you hit the meat of the torque curve a little lower on the RPM scale. In the hands of equally competent drivers, the Porsche will probably win on the track. But, it will take you several years of practice to get to the point where you are getting the most out of the M3. Put it this way, I doubt you would be faster in either car for many years, if ever. The previous model 911s used to be tricky to drive but the 996 is much easier to drive fast from what I've heard, but I don't think many cars are more forgiving or better balanced than the M3. I passed many 911s at Willow Springs.

And remember, the M3 can carry R compound tires in the back and with those, you will whip the Porsche pretty handily. The Porsche will need a trailer to carry the R compounds or a trailer to carry the whole car.

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Old 23rd August 2002, 09:18   #4
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Oh, one more thing

Porsche don't have SMG
But they do have the best brakes known to mankind
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Old 23rd August 2002, 17:45   #5
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off the lot the C2 is going to be faster because it comes with good brakes and well-balanced suspension

with $5k spent on new front brakes (see e46 board) and suspension mods for near-neutral handling the M3 may still be sligntly behind because of greater weight and higher center of gravity, it will be so close we're talking about small differences in driving skill -- enjoy the $25k left over, fold the rear seats down and put your track tires in, take the badge off and save more $$ that the C2 would draw in speeding tickets because it's a Porsche
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Old 23rd August 2002, 18:14   #6
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It is true that Porsche steering feel, weight and accuracy is second to none. I know for a fact that the M3 steering is slightly over-boosted. As for brakes, even 911 owners have to modify their brakes to cope with track use. Road and Track (Feb. 2001) road-test notes that the M3 has "fantastic pedal feel." On the other hand, Porsche brake feel is fantastic as well, from what I've heard. Steering goes to 911. Brakes are equal.

On the safety side, the M3 is far better. It has side and head airbags for all 4 passengers and the excellent, independent crash tests are public knowledge unlike the 911. This is not to say that the 911 is an unsafe car. In their brochures, they go out of their way to show how much they crash-test their cars. But no one can say, with 100% certainty, that the 911's crash data is equal to the 3-series. In a crash, I want to be in an M3. Safety goes to M3.

M3 has SMG which is a big advantage on track.
911 has a very slick gearbox that is a pleasure to shift.
Shifting gears on the TRACK goes to M3.

For street use, M3 is better because of four seats and trunk. M3 is low profile compared to 911. Practicality goes to M3.

Value for money, M3 is far better. You get a fully-loaded M3 for 55k. 911 starts in mid-60's and goes up to 85k when you start adding options. Value-for-money goes to M3.

You ask a tough question, Paul. Personally, I don't have much respect for a regular 911 because the M3 offers the same performance with better safety, better features, and day-to-day practicality for a bargain price. The only Porsche models I do respect are the 911 Turbo 6-speed and
the GT 2. They are awesome! The regular 911 does not stand out in its class.

Back to your track question: Which is faster on the track with the same driver? So, we have to look at the cars, stock to stock, without any modifications to anything. The M3 is an SMG so its driver will never make any shifting errors. The 911 has PSM which enables non-pro drivers to have faster lap-times. After looking through some of my old mags., I see that the M3 has better braking from 60-0 and 70-0mph from two different magazines. The 911 exhibits less understeer than the M3 on the track and it has "sharper but still moderate liftoff reaction" because of the rear-weight bias. The M3 understeers more than the 911 and weighs 335 lbs. more.

It's impossible to answer this question with certainty. I'd be grasping at straws. I have presented the facts. My gut instinct is the 911 will get a slightly better lap time because if the driver makes a medium mistake, the PSM will correct for it. In the M3, the DSC has to be off for the car to be effective on the track. Therefore there is no safety-net. If the M3 driver makes a mistake, he has to make all the corrections himself. Suppose electronics are banned from the track, the 911 still has the advantage of better, sharper handling, and better steering. The only downfall for the 911 is its manual gearbox. Providing the driver does not make a shift mistake, I think the 911 will get a better lap time. And since, one cannot pass in the corners during track days, even if the 911 mis-shifts, the M3 driver still cannot pass him because of rules. And on the straights, the cars are equal in power, so the M3 cannot overtake once again. The same applies if the M3 was in front of the 911. The 911 would not be able to pass him despite better handling. Given equal drivers, it all depends on who is in front of whom on the track.

I hope I haven't confused you. All this goes to show how close the cars are to each other. The biggest factor is the person behind the wheel and how confident he/she is with his/her car's capabilities.
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Old 23rd August 2002, 19:29   #7
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Paul,
I recommend researching luxury car rentals. Rent the cars you want to compare. Keep each for a full day or two. Make an educated choice. I did this with Park Place Motors Ltd. in Bellevue, Wa. 425 562 1000. They have a website . Talk to Greg in rentals. He's one of the VP's and tell him you're serious about buying one or the other and would like to rent either or both to compare. Ask him to set it up so if you buy from them they will deduct the rental charges form the purchase. He did this for me when I was shopping for a 993 or 996. I ended up renting an M5 for a weekend and never looked back. There are rental places all over the country. I mention Park Place because they have the cars for sale, also.
It's a fun way to make an educated choice.
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Old 23rd August 2002, 19:38   #8
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Sorry Paul the VP at Park Place Rentals is named Craig not greg. They will even pick you up at the airport and drop you off.
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Old 23rd August 2002, 20:13   #9
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Check out this article from Road & Track magazine. It is a test of handling characteristics on the track. While the 911 C2 is not represented, the 911 Turbo and Boxster S are. The M3 placed second to last and was nipped by the Boxster and beaten handily by the 911 Turbo. The cars were driven by the same professional driver - Bryan Herta.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/features...?articleID=220
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Old 23rd August 2002, 20:25   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by CEC
Check out this article from Road & Track magazine. It is a test of handling characteristics on the track. While the 911 C2 is not represented, the 911 Turbo and Boxster S are. The M3 placed second to last and was nipped by the Boxster and beaten handily by the 911 Turbo. The cars were driven by the same professional driver - Bryan Herta.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/features...?articleID=220
I looked at that article before finding the Feb. 2001 article with Paul Frere's evaluations. I disregarded the article you mentioned because the Boxster S is mid-engined and is a completely different car from the C2. That's why I rummaged around until I found a comparision between the M3 and C2. If anyone has a Car and Driver or MotorTrend article comparing the C2 and the M3, I'd be very interested in what they had to say.
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