E39 M5's "Speed", in context of the popular Nurburgring methode of measurement
I was involved in an interesting discussion regarding E39 M5's Lap times on another board. While making a slight joke about another member's newly acquired 2012 Chevy Cobalt SS, I was faced with a rebuttal about my E39 M5, the response was something like " border="0" alt="" onload="NcodeImageResizer.createOn(this);" />
Although not a complete shock that the 12 year newer/dressed up Chevy Cavalier/Cobalt was quicker around Nurburgring (Lap time of 8:23 recorded in 2008) I was still surprised to confirm that most internet magazines listed E39 M5 Nurburgring Lap time at 8:28, lap recorded back in 1998.
Regardless of my ownership of the E39 M5 (or the love and regard for it) I found myself trying to look for a reason why a Super Saloon of its era was 5 seconds slower than a Chevy Cobalt SS.
I have been racing motorcycles since 1994, and anyone who has hit the race track pavement in more than "track day" capacity and has used different compounds of race rubber understands how much affect tire technology and compounds can have on Lap times.
After doing a lot of research and checking up lap times of street cars from the late 90s, I have now confirmed my initial suspicion that the street tires used on the 1999 M5 in 1998 VS the street tires used on the Chevy Cobalt SS in 2008 must have literally been decades ahead in technology (and grip). 10 Year newer/better/gripier tires on the longest race track in the world would probably have a 10-15 seconds or more advantage (over lap time as long as 8 minutes etc)
The performance tires available in 1998 were no match for what is on the streets right now. Street tires in the last 3-5 years (car or motorcycle) have truly taken off.
I figured I should share some of my thought process and conclusion with you, just something to keep in mind when the "kids" try to use Lap times done by one of the best test drivers as any measure of how fast a street car really is.
Where did you do your research?
An average joe in a E46 M3 is 7:35 bridge to gantry. E36 328 is 8:24. These are not records just average joe records. Laptimes
I think if you surf this site you will find faster times than you are quoting.
Where did you do your research?
An average joe in a E46 M3 is 7:35 bridge to gantry. E36 328 is 8:24. These are not records just average joe records. Laptimes
I think if you surf this site you will find faster times than you are quoting.
I didnt research E39 M5's times, just other sporty cars, their times and then equivalent newer cars and their times.
Yes, you are right, all out "fastest" E39 M5 Nurburgring times are much fatser than 8:28, but the particular conversation I talked about was based on a single/same source for lap times of both cars.
The point I tried to make was that the Lap times are too dependent on the available street tires at the time and times set 10 years apart wiull surely be affected by better tires.
I think the stock brake pads may have prevented a faster time. There is a clip where Jeremy Clarkson asks Sarbine schmit if she can lap the ring taxi (E39 M5) around the ring in 8:15, to which she replied "Faster!". Of note, is the fact the ring taxis has upgraded Pagid yellow brake pads which presumably will shave significant time off the Norscheliffe's (sp) 168 (iirc) turns.
On 2nd thought, let's just ask Blue Thunder for an out lap!
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Where did you do your research?
An average joe in a E46 M3 is 7:35 bridge to gantry. E36 328 is 8:24. These are not records just average joe records. Laptimes
I think if you surf this site you will find faster times than you are quoting.
That time was a M3 CSL with a 500 hp ESS S/C.
A stock E46 M3 is about 8:15, E46 M3 CSL is about 7:47
Not sure but Here is a four passenger run in 2002 the camera fell but I think we see the Gantry at 927 and the bridge was 47 so that makes it an 840 and there was a couple of slow spots and this is just a taxi run.
If you want to win arguments get better info than the other guy. Classic Sabine video from 2002
I've noticed for a long time that slalom tests and track runs done by magazines are completely based upon tire choice. When Michelin PS2s were first coming out and getting sold on uprated models, all sorts of cars from Boxster S' to Cadillac CTS' were setting absolutely blazing standards in slalom, braking test, and certain track times. Huge differences from competitors and what not. And it almost always came down to tire choice.
That is why a well driven modern-tire-shod e30, e36, 911sc, and so many other cars are still totally competitive. It's only partly that those cars were so good for their time. Mostly it's because it comes down to tires and the ability of the driver to use them.
I say this and I'm not a track hound at all. It's purely observational. I would love to see a magazine take a bunch of classic cars, stick sets of Michelin Super Sports on them, and put them against modern equivalents.
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