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Thoughts on this winter/cold weather setup

3K views 22 replies 14 participants last post by  gsfent 
#1 · (Edited)
Hi all,

I live in a part of PA where winter can fluctuate a great deal - probably 2/3 years, I'll only ever need to drive on light snow - 1-2". However, from November-March (5 months) it is regularly down to freezing temps. So mostly it's either dry roads, wet roads, or lightly slushly roads. Rarely any genuinely snow-packed or icy roads for more than 2-3 days a year. Once every few years, we get pretty regular snow all season and while the roads are well plowed and salted, I'll be driving on or through several inches.

So in essence, I need to run a setup 5 months of the year that can handle freezing temps, slush, and light snow. When considering the beast is a 4000 pound RWD car w/ LSD & DSC, this says to me "all-season tire" (maybe witha pair of tire socks in the trunk to slip on in case of emergency).

So this is what I'm considering:

1. From tirerack, Rial Salerno 17x8 wheels & michelin pilot sport all season plus in 245/45/17 - $1400 shipped (roughly)

2. From tirerack, ASA AR1 18x9 wheels & michelin pilot all season plus in 255/40/18 - $1700 shipped (roughly)

3. BavAuto or similar, Beyern Mesh 18x8.5 wheels & kumho ecsta ASX in 245/40/18 - $1700 shipped (roughly)

My thinking is that a square setup is going to be best, michelin pilot sport all-seasons ride quite well, perform well, but have good longevity and modest capability in the snow. I won't mind having them on 5 months of the year, and I'll be able to reliably drive around in mild winter weather.

Any thoughts or suggestions? I'm wondering especially how the m5 handles mild winter weather with all-seasons on and responsible driving. I would RUN to get snow tires - but I have so little snow driving and yet have to be prepared 5 months a year.

Similarly, nearly 1/2 the rear I'll be running these wheels - so I want them to actually "fit" the car visually and ride nicely.

Feedback welcome.

Joe

P.s. For the sake of argument, this is my only car. When I have time to prep, I'd take my wife's subaru which is shod in all-seasons and does great. She's driving a ~3400-3500 pound car on 225/45/17 all-seasons and it does well. Heck, my 2850 pound FWD car running the same 225/45/17 all seasons does acceptably well.
 
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#2 ·
If you get actual snow, all seasons aren't going to cut it. This is a lot different than an AWD car. I can't drive my car up my driveway (very slight slope) with all seasons in the snow. DSC isn't going to do jack when you start heading sideways and you intend to be going straight.

Of course my wheels are the source of constant ridicule, but I have a 3 sets, staggered 17" with "summer" tires, square 16" wheels with skinny all seasons for spring and fall and square 16" wheels with snow tires for November - February. I went with 16" wheels because they clear my brakes, but you get the idea.
 
#3 ·
What's it like driving with skinny all-seasons on this chassis and level of power? (knowing you have alot more power than most, but still relevant)

I'm re-considering running a set of performance snows - I'm just afraid of the sacrifices they'll make.

One thing I actually find re-assuring is that the original 1997 540i 6-speed came from the factory with 235/45/17 in a square setup. Considering the tire advancements of the last 15 years, I'm willing to guess the M5 at least drives nicely with 245 wide tires considering it's still the same chassis and a not totally dis-similar level of torque. And an LSD.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Snow tires suck when it is not snowing, there is no way around it. When it is snowing they are great. My car is very manageable, but I'm not a real racer ;).

For reference, my Legacy has all seasons on it and it does fine in the snow (although I drove it about 500 miles total last year :eek: )

I'm the wrong guy to ask about the difference in feel between a set of 235 tires and a set of 245s.

P.s. Rao, remember: tires are just oil made solid.....just saying....
:rofl:
 
#6 ·
You just described the perfect conditions for a winter tire I hated. Mich Alpin sucked when the snow got thick, but in all your conditions would have been excellent. Where I live we have thick snow most of the time, they were poor in that condition. In the condition you describe I would have rated them excellent. On the dry at winter temps you will get as good performance as you get from your summers in the summer.
The big thing a bout winter tires is they are designed for the temp.
 
#8 ·
I have driven the Beast on both high performance all season (Bridgestone Potenza 960AS) and studless snow (Bridgestone Blizzark WS70) in the winter, and the difference is night and day. Anytime below 40F, the AS gets near the edge of its traction. On snow or in slush conditions, there's no comparison. The AS slips and slides even at 10mph when cornering whereas the snow tires plows through and stops quicker than any cars out there (to be fair, I only saw livery vehicles and SUVs out on snowy days). I may have gotten away with performance winter instead of studless snow, but ultimately I decided the risk for accident in inclement weather is greater than degradation of dry road steering response for 1/3 of the year (Dec to Mar). For completeness, I was running stock staggered setup on AS and OE 17" setup for snow.
 
#10 ·
I have driven the Beast on both high performance all season (Bridgestone Potenza 960AS) and studless snow (Bridgestone Blizzark WS70) in the winter, and the difference is night and day. Anytime below 40F, the AS gets near the edge of its traction. On snow or in slush conditions, there's no comparison. The AS slips and slides even at 10mph when cornering whereas the snow tires plows through and stops quicker than any cars out there (to be fair, I only saw livery vehicles and SUVs out on snowy days). I may have gotten away with performance winter instead of studless snow, but ultimately I decided the risk for accident in inclement weather is greater than degradation of dry road steering response for 1/3 of the year (Dec to Mar). For completeness, I was running stock staggered setup on AS and OE 17" setup for snow.
Thanks, that's really helpful. I've been driving on all-seasons for years and find them completely functional on my AWD and FWD cars (including driven fairly hard on dry roads in the winter). But the M5 is a very different proposition, and not one I want to risk...
 
#9 ·
Mikey - That's a ridiculous sentiment shared by many but thats hard to hold in my type of climate. I spend 5 months on very cold roads with either dry or damp conditions, of which a few days have snow on them. As far as I know, a good all-season still outperforms a performance snow tire on dry or damp roads in 25-30 degree weather (which is what i have). So the bulk of my driving, and my driving time, might be safest with an all-season in the winter.

I'm not saying an all-season is absolutely the right answer - but they do have a place.

Also, my priorities aren't aligned to park a $20k car 5 months a year so I can instead put another car through the winter. I'm looking to drive the $20k through a relatively dry/unsnowy but cold winter without sacrificing the characteristics of that $20k car by putting on tires that ride poorly - but maybe it'll ride just great with a set of michelin pilot alpin 2s as one person stated.
 
#11 ·
Mikey - That's a ridiculous sentiment shared by many but thats hard to hold in my type of climate. I spend 5 months on very cold roads with either dry or damp conditions, of which a few days have snow on them. As far as I know, a good all-season still outperforms a performance snow tire on dry or damp roads in 25-30 degree weather (which is what i have). So the bulk of my driving, and my driving time, might be safest with an all-season in the winter.
Might be what you believe but it is not true. The equal performance level is about 5 c anything lower than that and a winter has the advantage. If you google you will get web site after web site explaining. The educational tools are out there.
Hear is one quote
It's winter, but I don't see snow on the ground yet. Is there still a benefit to using winter tires when there is no snow?

On dry pavement, the overall performance of an all-season tire steadily declines as the temperature gets colder. The crossover point is about 5 degrees Celsius. Colder than that, a winter tire outperforms an all-season tire. Winter tire performance sharply improves as temperatures fall from 5 degrees to -30 degrees Celsius, while the all-season tire approaches the "not recommended" status.

What is the difference between all-season tires and winter tires?

All-season tires continue to provide safe all-weather performance, but may not always be suitable for severe snow conditions. All-season tires do not have cold weather rubber compounds, channelling tread patterns, the large number of tread sipes (tiny ****s in the tread blocks) for wet surface control, and the open tread block pattern for deep snow traction that winter tires feature. The lack of a formal "snow" designation on the tire has further fuelled the misconception that "all-season" tires also mean "winter" tires.




Another quote, clearly dispels your myth and support what Mikey offered
How does the tread design of winter tires affect their performance over all-season tires?

Winter tires typically feature a unidirectional tread design. The unidirectional, V-groove tires move slush and water out of the way better than any other tread design. The more open the tread design, the better the tire will perform against accumulated snow. The larger the tread blocks, the better the handling, steering response, and transient response. The more sipes (tiny ****s in the tread blocks), the better the tire will work on wet pavement, which is different than anti-hydroplaning. New advances, such as Goodyear's patented 3D-BIS - which stands for three dimensional block interlocking system - causes tread blocks to actually interlock during cornering, stopping, and at increased speeds.


If you are still doubting try this
Transport Canada, the Automobile Protection Agency and the Rubber Association of Canada have produced a series of videos that demonstrate the benefits of winter tires for winter driving. Click here to see the videos.
Before you say this is Canada yes it is, but these differences start at 5 Celsius so at the -1 Celsius you are speaking of there is still a significant advantage taken by the winter tire.
 
#12 · (Edited)
OP based on the conditions you said you would be driving in you can probably get away with good all season tires. They may not perform as well as true snow tires in cold temps, but they will probably fulfill your need. It might be worth it to try Nokian WRG2 tires. Based on Nokian's reputation and my experience with their winter tires I would trust the WRG2 as a true all season tire. If you are not familiar with them Nokian is a Finnish company that makes great snow tires a lot of the BMW community (think MB too) swears by them for winter tires. My guess is the WRG2s are going to outperform other "all season" tires in winter conditions and temps. But I do not know if they are going to feel too soft for your liking.

Nokian WRG2

Also Continental DWS (not the DW which is the summer version) tires get really good reviews from e39 folks (mostly non M5guys) on other boards as a good performing all season tire that can hold up to some winter use. I have no experience with them myself though.

I love my Michelin pilot sport A/S plus tires, but I chose them hoping to try and get most of the performance of a max performance summer tire, but with longer tread life. I don't run the car (e39 530) in the winter so I can't speak to their winter performance. The Conti's are cheaper and people seem to like em that is why I mentioned them.

As far as wheel and tire size I am not sure it is necessary to go down to 17" wheels for the conditions you will be in. To my knowledge the skinner tire advantage is it cuts through deep snow much better than a wider tire. Others can chime in if there are other winter performance benefits to a skinny winter tire. Also not all 17" wheel will clear M5 breaks, although tire rack has a pretty good rep so they may have picked one that does. Of course a non performance advantage to 17's is they should be cheaper than 18s.

I agree with what has been said about snow tires versus all season tires. Rubber compound, tire sipes and tread design are all important to winter snow performance. As other have said when the temperature drop below a certain amount it can impact a tires performance.

Having an all wheel drive car with all season tires is not fair comparison to all season tires on an M5. All wheel drive can make up for shortcomings in the grip of all season tires. If you lived in an area where you got a lot of snow though putting true winter tires on an AWD car would improve it capabilities even more. As I said earlier based on your climate you can probably get away with running all seasons though.
 
#13 · (Edited)
I'm running 245/40/18 Dunlop M3 winter tires on all 4 corners on the stock wheels (staggered and the wheels were in horrible shape when I got them). The rears look a bit odd (stretched) on the rim, but I haven't had any issues after 2 seasons.

The handling is a bit off with these "skinny" tires but acceleration definitely feels faster.
 
#14 ·
Thanks guys. Thanks to Sailor especially, and my apologies to Mikey if I repeated an old wives tale - I thought I had read on tirerack that RECENT all season tires outperformed snow tires by a good margin on surfaces like I described - but I can't find the article and other articles seem to indicate that's wrong. So I take it back - my apologies.

I'm inclined right now to go with a performance winter tire like the michelin pilot alpin 3 or something similar, in as wide a tire I can get on a ~17x8 or 17x8.5 rim (I know that's not the usual thinking with snows - I'm thinking that for my situation in particular). Probably 245/45/17, which is about as wide as tires get in that sizing.

I'll aim to put them on Mid-Novemberish and run them till at least Mid March. If I hate them and can't wait to wear them out, I'll eat the cost and switch to something like the Nokian WRG2 - which I can't order straight from tirerack but once I have the wheels will be easy to handle.
 
#15 ·
I've been running LM-60s on 4 OEM fronts (8x18s) all winter here in DC, and obviously there hasn't been much snow but day to day they've solid with the cold temps. The combo of performance winters and narrower rims on the rear clearly hurts performance but I wanted to be prepared in case it snowed midday, with the goal being able to get home in 3-5 inches of snow in a pinch. If you're talking about a dedicated set of "winter" rims or tires I can't see the point in all-seasons. When I bought my beast it had staggered 18" all-seasons on it and let's just say a surprise snow dusting was enough to bring in some traction challenges. Just my 2-cents, if you're going with a second set of rims and tires at least go performance winter if not stud-less snow.
 
#16 ·
I am on my 4th winter with Michelin PSA's on an all around 17' set of cheap wheels thru tire rack. They are softer, the ride is mushier(?), but they work well in the winter temps. I suspect that the type of winter conditions I encounter are very similar to Joe's in PA..If I run them out of tread, I would replace them with the same set-up, no question..I have tried all seasons, and trust me, they won't make you feel comfortable..
 
#17 · (Edited)
Since you say you don't get much snow where you are, get performance winter tires as opposed to All seasons and stay away from the winter studless tires which are way too mushy (but won't let you down on ice or deeper snow!).

The tires aren't just for snow. The WINTER tires, not snow tires are engineered to perform much better in cold weather compared to all seasons which will turn to hard rubber=useless and dangerous.

You can then get dedicated Max/UHP Summer tires so you can actually enjoy driving an M5 the way it was meant to be. Don't cheap out on tires.
 
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#18 ·
To fully enjoy this car you really do need two sets of wheels and tires. This "winter" has been nuts. Its 80 today in Charleston, SC and I haven't needed to put on my winter shoes this year. But I do have family up north and travel there frequently. Winter tires are a definite necessity, NOT just all seasons. I had Ultra High Performance All Seasons on mine when I bought it and thought that they would be fine for light snow and slush and what not. Um I was more than a little bit wrong...

Anyone remember the DC blizzard of December 09? That was a lesson learned while being stuck in a motel 6 for the better part of 3 days.

For wheels - I just assume go with BMW's recommended setup of 17X8 all around on Type 66 wheels. That's my opinion I think they look good, they are OEM quality, and they fit over the front brakes. Yes I get all the jeers from my friends "Nice 540 you got there" But seriously if you need to plow through snow you want smaller and narrower.

As for tires - That one is a much harder question to answer. I bought Pilot Alpin PA3 because my driving up north is on the coast where mostly slush and occasional snow comes down. Studless Snow/Ice are much better for inland storms.

Bottom line though - This is a fine car in the winter time with the right tires. Any dedicated winter tire will be much better than All Seasons in the snow and ice.

Snow Freezing Winter Vehicle Winter storm


Snow Vehicle Freezing Automotive design Car


Snow Winter Winter storm Freezing Blizzard
 
#19 ·
Winter Tires!

as mentioned earlier, not snow tires.

I did make the mistake of blizzaks on the M5, and it kills some of the handling. Next year I will go for the high performance winters. That said, make sure to get a set of blizzaks for the wife's subaru. We have them on my wife's WRX and I swear the thing is unstoppable in the snow (ok, until the frame hangs up on drifts). That also allows me to get slightly less grip in the really bad weather, 'cause we can take her car.

ssomed
 
#21 ·
Which ones exactly?
 
#22 ·
I would do Nokian's except I'd have to get a set of hub-centric wheels from somewhere, then go get the Nokian's. I'm not willing to do it for the hassle and extra expense.

I'll start with something like hte michelin pilot alpin 3. I'm sold on winter tires now. Now it's a matter of wheel and width.
 
#23 ·
I would do Nokian's except I'd have to get a set of hub-centric wheels from somewhere, then go get the Nokian's. I'm not willing to do it for the hassle and extra expense.
Stock fronts, 18x8, make a pretty nice hubcentric winter wheel!

Regards,
Jerry
 
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